What is a hybrid?

[sirbabbo]

I’ve seen in chat a lot about hybrid builds and I get the general feeling people are not understanding the concept. It’s really interesting that there is no talent point and build direction towards this concept which could in all honesty help understand your class better. Hybrid in mattresses is memory foam and inter coil springs put together to delivery the best of two supporting worlds into one mattress thus theoretically eliminating each other out to deliver the support and comfort you need a good night sleep... Now villagers and heroes doesn’t have mattresses in the game to give our resting toons a goodnight sleep, but we do have hybrid building talk a lot going on with no clear directions.

From Personal experience, people use the mastery system to explain a hybrid build more times then often. So if my lighting warrior has fury talent points is that considered a hybrid? It begs the question is it? Or is there more to it from it to make it a hybrid?

Main point is to open up a discussion that I think would help other players in the game to understand the concept of what it means to be a hybrid?

Love to hear some thoughts on this concept and see if there is such a thing as a hybrid and if so is it really worth it?

Thanks

 

[Sinjin]

To my mind, mixing talents alone doesn’t make a toon a hybrid. They’re (some kind of) hybrid when they’re using weapon feats for each sub-class. So, if you’re a water shaman with earth shard (or earth shaman with water shield/riptide)… you’re a hybrid.

Almost always, the intent of hybridization is to increase dps or survivability. Rarely does one have to go hybrid to increase healing (solo shadow priest and earth shaman being the exceptions, and even then only enough to increase survivability.)

Some classes benefit more from hybridization than others. Shaman don’t really shine unless they’re at least a little hybrid, while holy priest doesn’t really get much of a bump.

 

[Zaphyra]

I've considered building a hybrid Wiz... because I like the instant damage of Ice, more than the damage-over-time of Fire... but I can't give up the instant cool-down from Mindspark. I really need to take a closer look at my Talent Trees and feats... then read the hybrid Wiz guides, to see if there's a way to get the best of both sub-classes.

 

[sirbabbo]

To my mind, mixing talents alone doesn’t make a toon a hybrid. They’re (some kind of) hybrid when they’re using weapon feats for each sub-class. So, if you’re a water shaman with earth shard (or earth shaman with water shield/riptide)… you’re a hybrid.

Almost always, the intent of hybridization is to increase dps or survivability. Rarely does one have to go hybrid to increase healing (solo shadow priest and earth shaman being the exceptions, and even then only enough to increase survivability.)

Some classes benefit more from hybridization than others. Shaman don’t really shine unless they’re at least a little hybrid, while holy priest doesn’t really get much of a bump.

Just curious with a following up question, would focusing on attack rating and defense rating help towards building a hybrid?

 

[Sinjin]

Not exactly. AR and DR are useful as a guide for players that want to play but don’t want to have to take off their shoes and use their toes when they start doing maths.

I’ll give you an example. Raising your block chance will raise your DR (unless it’s already applying the maximum amount towards your DR), but raising block chance on a hybrid light will significantly increase your dps. DR is supposed to be about survival and tanking, right? Aren’t things that increase my attack supposed to be reflected in AR? The truth is, AR and DR are only useful if you don’t know which stats to improve; once you do, AR and DR simply become signposts that mark milestones, and are about as useful.

Now as to hybrids, there’s often more than one; depending on class, you may have access to more than one hybrid build. As an example, there are really only 3 builds for Wizard (a ‘pure’ fire, and two hybrids; playing ‘pure’ ice right now means living life wearing a padded helmet) while there are no less than 5 for shaman (2 ‘pures’ and 3 hybrids, including the attune-free max raid dps build).

And some of those hybrid builds may be universally useful (arcane ice, concussion/splinter naturalist, hybrid dps lightning warrior) and some are purpose-built, but limited in usefulness (riptide healtank, living water melee dps, etc.)

About the only class that suffers from hybridization is holy priest.

 

[Sinjin]

I've considered building a hybrid Wiz... because I like the instant damage of Ice, more than the damage-over-time of Fire... but I can't give up the instant cool-down from Mindspark. I really need to take a closer look at my Talent Trees and feats... then read the hybrid Wiz guides, to see if there's a way to get the best of both sub-classes.

About the only thing you’d want from ice is frost nova (to double up AoE stuns; very useful in a solo raid build) and glacial spike (the high-dmg insta-cast fits nicely in an alacrity/mindspark rotation, regardless of build).

As for being ice, you’ll want to hybridize no matter what. There is just no way you can compete with Mindspark; either decide to just suck, or 1) find a way to dump enough points into arcane to not suck as much, or 2) dump enough points into fire to get brilliant and bright, at which point you might was well just roll fire.

Thems be the options.

 

[Halleebell]

Personally I think hybrid is a mix of both classes feats/talents. My light and nature both use feats from the subclass. But that’s because there are a few feats from my class that I really don’t like. Nature having atleast three feats that I’m just not willing to use. That I feel are useless. I could get more impact by using a different feat then those. But both toons are straight light and nature. So I’d never say I’m “hybrid”, if I was using certain feats that went with talents and I was also using those talents from the subclass I’d say I’m hybrid. But that’s just me.

 

[Giruv]

I think Hybrid in general is just a combination of the 2 subclasses. Now what probably make it confusing is some players have different boundary on when to call it hybrid. Some say taking a single spell or a single talent from the other class is already a hybrid, while some might not. For me personally the boundary is when the combination start to change the class identity, either by removing your subclass weaknesses or adding the other subclass specialty. For example Shadow Priest adding Holy Bolt isn't a hybrid for me, since the subclass still functioning pretty much the same, while a Shadow Priest that add Heal is a hybrid, because now he can heal others too.

 

[IrishElf]

Anything that isn't 100% one sub-class or the other. Once you mix a feat, skill or talent from the other sub-class your toon is a hybrid.
So basically if your toon isn't 100% pure whichever class you chose as your base, you are hybrid.

 

[Halleebell]

I don’t think having 600 marksmen mastery when compared to my 34,000 nature marks me as “hybrid” it’s literally doing nothing for me. Having 1feat isn’t going to make me some powerful figure… maybe if it was a higher percentage but this is why I wouldn’t say I’m “hybrid”

 

[Sinjin]

Yeah, nah. To my mind, a holy priest taking a discipline talent doesn’t qualify as ‘hybrid’. Such a definition would classify almost everyone as a hybrid (and would include everyone with 1+ rebirths as there would be so many talent points that you’d have to spend them in an off-class talent tree).

A ‘pure’ shadow priests with ST cure ain’t really a hybrid; it’s a shadow priest with no viable necklace choice. That definition would also classify almost every hunter as hybrid, ‘cuz ain’t nobody with a choice taking distract over preparation.

 

[Antavious]

I think at 95 all classes/builds can be kinda hybrid but I think when you have a high % mix of stats, feats and talents it counts more as one.

frankly because of talent limitations I don’t think a 95 can go completely without splashing a build at least a little and still have a half decent one.

as a tank both warrior and shaman I notice purists with nothing extra from non-earth, non-lightning lines just can’t keep up at all with threat even from dps players let alone a more balanced tank, I suspect other roles are similar in that regard for a class/build to be amazing you have to be creative with all your tools.

 

[Majenta]

I don't think it really matters all that much anyway. All that matters is that players have fun and like the way their character is built.

As it stands, a level 95 character with all 5 rebirths has 130 talent points to spend. Each line of the talent tree has 105. So by definition, you either leave 25 talent points unused (in which case why do all those rebirths?) or you must have at least 25 points invested elsewhere. Since in theory, the middle tree is made up of talents which are not specific to either sub class, it could be argued that if all 25 extra talent points are invested in those central talents, then the build is still not hybrid. (Adding a few points in health or mana doesn't make a holy priest into a shadow hybrid.) So an ice wiz is still an ice wiz even with 20 points in Frostfire. Indeed, I personally regard Majenta as an ice wiz even though she has both Frostfire and Master of the Arcane maxed, meaning that 43 % of her talent points are invested in Arcane and just 57% in Ice.

When I started playing, it was clear that for all four of the "original" character classes there were two distinct sub-classes, though back then the major distinction was in the gear used. When Starfall introduced the current talent trees, it was still the case that each class had two sub-class trees and a middle group of talents which were equally applicable to both, and which had neutral names (balance, discipline, survival and arcane). I think the Shaman muddied the waters (if you'll forgive the pun) by adding the rather misleading title of wind to the middle tree and particularly by adding an attunement to wind. This gives the entirely false impression that there are three sub-classes of Shaman. There aren't. Shaman is still two sub-classes and a middle group of talents which can benefit either, and just like all the others also has the option of various flavours of hybrid combinations of talents and feats or spells.

Don't over think it. Just build your character to suit your playstyle and consider them as what you think suits their character. You are, and your character is, what you feel. Above all, have fun.

 

[Sinjin]

(a lot of great things)

I agree with alla that, but with one distinction… shaman. Shaman is the first class that can legitimately claim a solid build in each of the three archetypes (dps, healer, tank). That, plus the shaman’s highest pure dps build doesn’t use an attune, so you end up with almost every shaman being ‘some kind of hybrid’ because water shield without erosion quickly loses its value and Gaia’s Ward on a water shaman is the <good stuffs>.

The most important thing is to haves the funs.

 

[Majenta]

I agree with alla that, but with one distinction… shaman. Shaman is the first class that can legitimately claim a solid build in each of the three archetypes (dps, healer, tank). That, plus the shaman’s highest pure dps build doesn’t use an attune, so you end up with almost every shaman being ‘some kind of hybrid’ because water shield without erosion quickly loses its value and Gaia’s Ward on a water shaman is the <good stuffs>.

The most important thing is to haves the funs.

Agreed. My point is you can't have a "pure" Wind build anymore than you can have a "pure" survival build hunter - not unless you really like using auto attacks.

 

[sirbabbo]

From my understanding it seems like hybrid is a term that people are confused about and could be possibly trying to focus on this too much.
Sharmans are the only hybrid class that seems to stand out due to a number of reasons explained.
Would a mastery in the middle talent points be acceptable to help boost the middle class to make it more affective?

 

[Majenta]

From my understanding it seems like hybrid is a term that people are confused about and could be possibly trying to focus on this too much.
Sharmans are the only hybrid class that seems to stand out due to a number of reasons explained.
Would a mastery in the middle talent points be acceptable to help boost the middle class to make it more affective?

There is no middle class. Mastery boosts associated feats - there are no feats for the middle tree, that's the point. Hybrids are builds mixing the two actual sub-classes. The middle "tree" isn't the base for hybrid builds.

The confusion is brought about by people referring to the shaman as if it were three subclasses when, like all the others, it is not. The best way to remove the confusion would be to remove the name wind, along with the attunement to wind. Personally I think all classes' middle trees should be named "Balance" to emphasise that for all the classes, the middle tree is made up of talents which boost either sub-class.

 

[Sinjin]

There is no middle class. Mastery boosts associated feats - there are no feats for the middle tree, that's the point. Hybrids are builds mixing the two actual sub-classes. The middle "tree" isn't the base for hybrid builds.

Except the part about the ‘no feats in the middle tree’ thing, that’s all correct. There are feats in the middle tree, they’re just not found on dropped/crafted weapons. Lulling Breeze, Mana Gusts, Attune to Wind, Rebuke, Steady, Huzzah, Turn the Tide, Invisibility, Arcane Alacrity are all examples. Some come from elder weps, some from necklaces, and some are literally provided in the the middle tree… but none of these are from a sub-class.

 

[Sinjin]

Moving past the ‘what’, the reasons ‘why’ are often less murky.

- It’s almost always to make the character more effective in their defined role. Dps can sometimes increase their dps by cherry-picking ‘the greatest hits’ from the class (assuming they can cover the loss of deep deep dr on mastery). This doesn’t apply to healers so much, as off-mastery feats/talents don’t really improve healing.

- Sometimes, it’s just to increase survivability (e.g. Shadow Priest socketing a mastery-bonus-free heal, water shaman taking erosion, fire Wizard taking frost nova for the double aoe stun.) Healers will often hybridize to raise their sustain or survivability.

- Lastly, hybridization often permits a class to perform more than one role (or archetype) in a single build. For example, a great tank hybrid can take a hit as well as they need to without shredding the healer… but they often have greater sustain or much improved dps.

Now, as to the ‘why not’.

- Some people have notions of ‘class purity’. No comment, other than to say I do not share their sentiment.

- Sometimes a hybrid build is purpose-built, but it doesn’t perform well elsewhere (i.e., they lose the benefit outside of the narrow confines targeted in the build). A good example is 95 elders and raids. You can build a monster 95 elder dps build that struggles in the charts anywhere else. A better example is perhaps some of the solo raid hybrids (which get the greatest benefit to off-mastery healing/dmg because of dungeoneering’s ability power bonuses).

- Sometimes, hybridization results in ‘weird gameplay’ that your brain doesn’t readily accept. A good example is an attuneless shaman, which has both living water and melee feats (it turns a ranged class into a melee class that has some ranged feats; hella dangerous at orlas, etc.)

 

[sirbabbo]

Yes I see war cry from a warrior discipline as a great example that boosts all cries, on your build but actually boosts mastery for your lw/fw and supporting members.

I honestly see the warrior and sharman middle talent tree as a third mastery build that should and could be additional content by adding gear/weapons for boosting that mastery. Not positive on others, but I think it could have some merit to boost a hybrid.

But again I’ve found out of all the classes that a lw hybird and a ws hybrid are very appealing. Lw can neglect the forth talent tree and boost from discipline or fury to add more dps but remain a tank and have self healing buffs. Att/def rating remain over 8.5 and spells support.. is it a true hybird couldn’t say.

A lot of good insight.