sirbabbo

Guest
Sorry about the fury warrior tank. I’ve never actually met a fury that feels completely comfortable claiming tank status. And I’ve never met one that likes to tank except for as an absolute last resort. Lol. *cheers* I’m sure you are amazing at it!!! Don’t let my lack of fury tank experience get you down. Xoxo.
Lol your good. I don’t mind it at all, depends on the run. But the fury tank, is more in favor of jugg, blasting and a touch of beserk with a heavy load of vitality. 350k benchmark with buffs. Holds aggro unless my guildee es comes along he takes over.. dps is high on the list..

But no worries I do wish we can combine different servers to do elder runs. Would be a lot of fun comparing runs and notes
 

Klaeklae

Bog Frog
Platform
Android
I haven't played both Lightning Warrior and Earth Shaman subclasses at all so IDK if what I'm going to say will make sense. But as a DPS role that receives tanking services, I feel like I should say a couple of things as what I've observed so far both in lvl95 Elders, Raids, and EZs:

Note: Consider all classes/toons as fully socketed, all legendary, lvl95s

1. LW pulls mobs easier and faster than ES because they have lower cooldowns and fast casting speed feats. But they can't hold aggro 100% of the time (especially in Raids) because they[/QUO
Haven’t seen a sharman be top dps, but that would be interesting to see! I’ve seen moderate high, but top would be a welcome change.

It’s the same for a fury warrior, can be all 3 but a selfish healer at best. Lol
Lightning tanks lose threat to earth a lot I think? Unless nobody is lightning? It’s hard to know... for sure.
The cool down is insane on lightning spells. Daang. (Jealous!!!) but the difference in threat when using all three is also insane.

Base threat only:
The three threat shots for lightning warrior = 56.5k base threat generation. The three threat shots for earth sham= 255.8k base threat.
That isn’t even taking into account mastery and spell power increases.

Factoring in Cooldown and Cooldown rate And craig-strike-earth-shard-Cooldown and zephyrs enclave.... (Cooldown Rate being something every shammy should be (and likely is) absolutely obsessive about...)
And factoring in rocky (summons) who generates a heap of threat all by himself, and retaliation effect that crits.... plus near constant voidstrike....

I don’t know Giruv. It seems like saying that no shaman can ever get aggro on a lightning warrior is a little... strongly worded.

I’ll have to see how it goes in a few days when relics run dry.

**edit just realized we should really add ground slam to the list of shaman threat generating shots.
I agree. I pull aggro away from some very good lightning warriors all the time.

It sounds like some server dynamics are playing into this discussion. As an example, I hear players from us3 tell me all the time that shadow priest is the de facto highest dps. But most on us2 know better (totally my fault). They arent quite so "de facto" where I come from (still up there with the best tho).

But this translates into tanking dynamics too. Stick 6 of me in a group with 1 lightning warrior and they are prolly gonna have a bad time. In my opinion, that lightning warrior (skills and gear being equal) should be able to hold threat in this situation.

If there was a change to be made to Shamans to assist in threat management, making the dash equal in speed and length to the warrior version is about all I could agree with.

Additionally, I don't think many on us2 or us3 have really pushed the limits of the shaman class, nor do I believe shamans should have equal ability to manage threat. I'd give that trophy to lightning warriors all day, for reasons I've previously mentioned, and I hope the devs see that my way too (assuming Shamans remain in there current state).

-Klaeklae

P.s. orange was on top of the 95 elder run today!
 

Giruv

Merchant
Royal Guardian
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Last edited
Got a great threat chart from our guild elder run and there is a Marksman on this run. This one is from Lannox fight.
1619930621210.png
Note: I think I got the threat chart doesn't decrease over time bug so the number is bloated, but the ordering and difference scaling is still correct
 
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Heykathster

Squirrel
Characters
Kaasan, Heyboo, Daanger, Ok Bumi
Platform
iOS, PC
Last edited
US2 Chinese elder run (almost 18 hours ago) It’s just so hard to grab a screen shot so I used my phone and it’s blurry. This is right before Lannox died.

This was pretty standard threat for that run. Full earth sham. With gale force and the rest in wind fury.
811773D8-B6B7-4FD4-A386-559ECE2899DF.jpeg
note: if we have certain lws or if we have a Marx around that chart can look a lot different. Just posting the one run.
 

Black_Cvlt

Arch Wizard
Characters
Danger Zone, Black Cvlt, Coup de Grace, Crafty Hands, High Voltage
Platform
Android, PC
Got a great threat chart from our guild elder run and there is a Marksman on this run. This one is from Lannox fight.
Just as I said 🤷‍♂️
Btw, full dps shaman with buffed cd will VERY easily outaggro lightning warrior.
No one can compete with aggro from earth shard with 1 second cd.
 

Klaeklae

Bog Frog
Platform
Android
Got a great threat chart from our guild elder run and there is a Marksman on this run. This one is from Lannox fight.
View attachment 12542
Note: I think I got the threat chart doesn't decrease over time bug so the number is bloated, but the ordering and difference scaling is still correct
For reference, that shaman had picked up a mask of deftness just before that fight and had it for the duration, and also ran a physical damage immunity trinket instead of Zephyr (to help with damage reflect). Addotionally (as Giruv mentioned), a marksman hunter was present.. so the stars aligned.. ie.. it was a best case scenario.

-Klaeklae
 
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Minus

Lumineer
Platform
iOS
Last edited
Intuitively you would think to add more defense for tanking and threat generation, but for lightning warriors it’s not the case. Lightning warriors have to drop defense for offense to be competitive with aggro/threat.

Some random thoughts/suggestions:

- Raise threat generation for thunderclap. I know it was nerfed for spurring jolts, but it’d be nice to see it at 15-20%.

- Have thunderstrike be the lightning equivalent to phoenix strike with threat generation and heals. Maybe award phoenix strike with more crit damage for fury/lightning balance.

- Improve unbreakable will with better heals and spell.
 

Klaeklae

Bog Frog
Platform
Android
Intuitively you would think to add more defense for tanking and threat generation, but for lightning warriors it’s not the case. Lightning warriors have to drop defense for offense to be competitive with aggro/threat.

Some random thoughts/suggestions:

- Raise threat generation for thunderclap. I know it was nerfed for spurring jolts, but it’d be nice to see it at 15-20%.

- Have thunderstrike be the lightning equivalent to phoenix strike with threat generation and heals. Maybe award phoenix strike with more crit damage for fury/lightning balance.

- Improve unbreakable will with better heals and spell.
Why not just set it up so as a lightning warrior builds defense, they also build threat and maybe some dps. Although to go a true tank setup it shouldn't need dps to compete.

-Klaeklae
 
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Minus

Lumineer
Platform
iOS
Why not just set it up so as a lightning warrior builds defense, they also build threat and maybe some dps. Although to go a true tank setup it shouldn't need dps to compete.

-Klaeklae
Can’t agree more with that. Defense should promote threat generation.
 

Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
To some degree ‘defense grants threat’ is in play since the light ultimates grant a bonus. The talents aren’t all defensive, but you’re not pulling that bonus from off-spec or from increased dmg. Making it where threat is purely (or even mostly) from turtling, you’re going to (once again) end up with solo warrior dps that slogs through the leveling grind.
 

Klaeklae

Bog Frog
Platform
Android
To some degree ‘defense grants threat’ is in play since the light ultimates grant a bonus. The talents aren’t all defensive, but you’re not pulling that bonus from off-spec or from increased dmg. Making it where threat is purely (or even mostly) from turtling, you’re going to (once again) end up with solo warrior dps that slogs through the leveling grind.
I don't think it needs to be "all-in". But it could be adjusted.

Attacks could also be adjusted to provide additional threat, etc. without decreasing damage.

Also.. if someone wants to spec pure tank, then I would expect a drop in dps. A player can always spec away from pure tank for leveling if it is truly that low. But if they do spec pure tank, then the benefit of threat control should definitely be present (level / gear / skills all being equal).

-klaeklae
 
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Minus

Lumineer
Platform
iOS
To some degree ‘defense grants threat’ is in play since the light ultimates grant a bonus. The talents aren’t all defensive, but you’re not pulling that bonus from off-spec or from increased dmg. Making it where threat is purely (or even mostly) from turtling, you’re going to (once again) end up with solo warrior dps that slogs through the leveling grind.
That's true with spurring jolts and will-to-live, but majority are offensive/ability talents and feats that generate threat. My suggestions above were just quick fixes, incorporating more defensive threat generating abilities will require some significant changes.

yesterday at our guild 95 elders run I used all lightning talents with frenzied strike. There was a significant increase in my DPS, threat/aggro generation felt good and we had a marksman hunter. However the entire run costed me around 150 lvl3 mana pots 🤪. I hope mana proposal 4.0 is kind to me :cool:
 

sirbabbo

Guest
That's true with spurring jolts and will-to-live, but majority are offensive/ability talents and feats that generate threat. My suggestions above were just quick fixes, incorporating more defensive threat generating abilities will require some significant changes.

yesterday at our guild 95 elders run I used all lightning talents with frenzied strike. There was a significant increase in my DPS, threat/aggro generation felt good and we had a marksman hunter. However the entire run costed me around 150 lvl3 mana pots 🤪. I hope mana proposal 4.0 is kind to me :cool:
I don’t think there will be a mana 4.0, not after 3.0 got shut down... now I’m off topic..
lol
 
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