Helos

Citizen
Characters
Helos, Helox, Heloq
Platform
iOS
Ok, once again. The thread has nothing to do with DPS. It has to do with synergy as a tank and threat. The mentioned things are not buffing DPS they are making your entry into battle faster. If anything it was a decrease. I’m not sure why people keep bringing up DPS. The only reason I mentioned it in the original post was to say the synergy of having to use a massive amount of points elsewhere to keep up with DPS is how a shaman remains competitive, thereby lowering overall threat for most people. I don’t personally have a problem with DPS or threat either but I also am fully socketed legendary with all enchantments on both warrior and shaman. I can tell you for sure that lightning has some clear advantages.
 
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Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
I think the reason keep bringing up dps is because high dps generates high threat as well (which is why lightning threat generation was increased in the past because tanks simply couldn't keep up with the threat generated by dps chars).
 
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Klaeklae

Bog Frog
Platform
Android
Ok, once again. The thread has nothing to do with DPS. It has to do with synergy as a tank and threat. The mentioned things are not buffing DPS they are making your entry into battle faster. If anything it was a decrease. I’m not sure why people keep bringing up DPS. The only reason I mentioned it in the original post was to say the synergy of having to use a massive amount of points elsewhere to keep up with DPS is how a shaman remains competitive, thereby lowering overall threat for most people. I don’t personally have a problem with DPS or threat either but I also am fully socketed legendary with all enchantments on both warrior and shaman. I can tell you for sure that lightning has some clear advantages.
I guess my opinion is that I think it is ok if lightning is a clear #1 and shaman a clear #2. And we can disagree.. it's OK. Shaman class makes up for it by also excelling in other areas that bring value to a group.. and that is my real point.

-klaeklae
 

Giruv

Merchant
Royal Guardian
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
The thread has nothing to do with DPS. It has to do with synergy as a tank and threat. The mentioned things are not buffing DPS they are making your entry into battle faster.
Sadly it is connected, faster entry also mean more time in combat which will become more damage, faster cast time on water shield mean you can cast other spell faster which also turn into more damage. More damage also equal more threat, when you do very high damage as the example shown before, beating Lightning aggro is very possible to do.
 
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Helos

Citizen
Characters
Helos, Helox, Heloq
Platform
iOS
We can disagree this is true, and it is an open public forum. But asking for the “same” entry time into combat should yield a similar chance to cause threat. Which was the main argument of the post. Giving gale force the same distance and speed, would give shaman a chance to get into battle at the same rate as a warrior. Albeit the others are maybe a stretch, but I don’t think that one is.
 

Heykathster

Squirrel
Characters
Kaasan, Heyboo, Daanger, Ok Bumi
Platform
iOS, PC
Last edited
I don't play a tank of either kind so forgive me if I ask a very stupid question, but what does it matter? Who cares which can keep aggro over which? As long both keep aggro over the squishies when only tank, yes? Both their tasks is keeping aggro. So if they both do their task when needed...
Well I have so many thoughts about your original post Kulshan. I can tell you love earth sham too <3. A dirt-covered cheers to all earth shammy's out there!

I have a 95 earth sham, full-tank (dang I love to play her) and I have felt all of your same frustrations. (Especially the weird gale force thing... it's almost rage-making using the warrior version because it's so windy and zoomy and easy feeling. That really does need to be fixed, I mean it's just messed! up!)


I really liked a lot of your ideas Kulshan! But in the end, I have to say that I'm in agreement with eki here. I gauge a strong tank based on whether or not a dps toon can ever get aggro on the tank. Especially because my first 95 toon is a shadow priest, and I have a few high damaging friends for whom I'd like to be able to tank during raids. If a tank can keep damage off of the often competetive-as-all-get-out-dps toons, then they are an excellent (!) tank. Regardless of whether or not some other tank in the vicinity can out-threaten them.

(It is the same deal playing a dps toon, in a way. I might not be "needed" for example, bc someone else can probably burn the place down without me... but it's really nice to get in there and pick it up sometimes when someone else's shadow orb doesn't explode- or what have you...)

Also: many times there are more than one boss at elders to fight- and when a high damaging dps toon is slamming one but the tank is slamming the other... well it's really good to have another tank around. Especially with so many damaging toons in the area hitting hard. Right?

After reading and appreciating your thoughts and ideas, I was left really wanting to add some of the ways that I think earth sham really stands out as tank, over warrior. (In my supremely biased opinion, as I do not play a 95 warrior. yet.) -- and keeping in mind that we all can easily agree that warrior is to tank what holy is to heals. aka: warrior is freaking awesome *swoon* but it's my turn for the mic so..... *throws mud clot*

Reasons To Choose A Sham-Tank Over A Warrior-Tank

1. Damage. You are right about earth shammy being a king mitigating class. (gleeful excitement about this mitigation topic! This is why earth shaman is so fun to play.) Earth sham not only mitigates damage received with diamond skin/water shield and buffs, but earth sham also mitigates its lower-threat-generating capabilities with our hugely increased damage potential. An all-dirty-full-earth shammy 95s gold-run is not an impossible thought. (ooh... that would be so fun.... anyone want to try that with me sometime?)

2. Ranged shots. Granted we only have 2 ranged shots, (earth shard and seismic shock) but those shots shoot from pretty far. (And.. .EARTH SHARD, mic drop.) They shoot from far enough that they can be launched way in advance of our wonky-as-all-get-out-gale-force landing at the boss. A smart shammy tank could (and should... in an ideal shammy tanking scenario) pull those mob-groups halfway to you. (I never do this at 95s because that would mess up our flow and require some 95s choreography discussions. The current elders-run-tank-flow is very lightning-centric in US2. And makes me cuss like a freaking pirate half the time.... which is why I completely get your frustrations.) But an earth sham tank who sends a brut-force-crit-earth-shard into the group from range, is a pretty strong threat to lightning warriors. And that tactic should be used, basically always, if you are trying to keep up with your crazy fire wiz and nature hunter and shadow priest buddies. (And, okay, if you are trying to stomp the threat of the lightning war-near-you... cuz... competitive problems. :eek: *points finger at self*)

3. Healers best friend. Can we talk about how wasted a holy priest or water shammy is who can't fight much because they are too busy dumping their mana and and buffs into a warrior's endless pit of health points? *chants* "Healers can fight, too! Healers can fight, too!" In raids (this is more applicable to raids, I think) between diamond skin, water shield, and earthquake... you can almost never need healing. (Well, if you choreograph and time your earth-dance well. which I don't always.) This leaves space for your water shammies to jack up their health points and juggernaut and blast the mobs to pieces. Or for your holy priests to send their buffs to themselves and holy ardor the bejeezuz out of everything. I mean.. overall it makes for a very strong raiding team.

4. Area. There's no touching the area of influence our tremors has. It's huge. I've been meaning to try for 95s a tidal wave, too. (For those group pulls? Have any of you done that?)

In my opinion, I think a big part of the problem with the 95s run is too many drivers. The tanks should be communicating or respectfully allowing one or the other to drive. (but maybe we should be better at taking turns on that... I know I am terrible about that.. gah.) And the usual 95s setup is a lightning centric setup and it doesn't support a shammy's strengths very well. If 95 players would think of the tank as the "driver" and let them do the actual driving (even if it means you are surprised by a pull or what have you) that would solve a lot of issues. Likewise, building a strong raids team is so much more about 1.) learning how to stay in your lane and what your role is in a team and 2.) being flexible with another person driving in their way. It can expand your mind and completely change your game. (Note: I know that letting someone else drive when you're used to driving is really hard. I am terrible at it too and I'm probably the reason some of my lightning-warrior-beast friends cuss like a pirate during 95s. And raids. xD sorry.)

So, keeping in mind that I don't really think the devs should adjust shammy so we can stomp our warrior friends (although... I mean.... we can tho, already... sometimes..... right klae?) And keeping in mind that I do believe that any tanking class should be able to accomplish the goal of keeping their collection of dps-lunatics alive...

Here are a A few suggestions I would make to help an earth sham tank more effectively:

1. Agree so much about the gale force thing. I've been meaning to write this suggestion myself.
2. There is too much time in between threat-generating-shots. In both raids and 95s there are times when I arrive at a group and cannot throw anything besides rock bite or crag. My suggestions to fix this would be any of the following options:
A: Make tremors cooldown a little faster
B: Make attune to earth cool down a little faster.
C: Allow gale force to trigger blasting upon landing.
D. Allow gale force to generate a little threat upon landing. (this would be my vote! Maybe it can generate threat for earth attune and blasting for water attune? which would help water shammy with their blasting-in-groups problem.)
3. Earth shammy has a major pulling problem. We cannot pull because every time we crit, we stun. I love the crit-stun thing sometimes but really... that should probably just be eliminated. Between stun crit and rock-monster... the pull issues are crazy-making. (Edit: This particular issue makes us far more ineffective as a tank than anything else mentioned... and it's why we can't pull groups to meet us halfway in elders like we should be able to do....)
**edit** -giving seismic shock a small, lasting 2-3 seconds only, threat generation would solve this issue but we need to make it un-critable first.
**also edit** the stun-crit-thing only hurts our threat generation anyway because we have to be getting hit in order to generate threat. It would be like having a shadow ultimate that reduces it's curse power. Or a holy-ulitmate that reduces it's healing ability. I have a good stun! I'll use it I promise :D. But the crit-stun thing should really be removed.


Those are my 2 cents. Thanks for the fun shammy ideas and posts! The best part about playing shammy, in my opinion, is the challenge. You have to puzzle your way through and use your strengths really intelligently. But honestly, I have yet to play a toon that doesn't require that... it's just a fun puzzle this earth sham of mine.
 

Heykathster

Squirrel
Characters
Kaasan, Heyboo, Daanger, Ok Bumi
Platform
iOS, PC
Haven’t seen a sharman be top dps, but that would be interesting to see! I’ve seen moderate high, but top would be a welcome change.

It’s the same for a fury warrior, can be all 3 but a selfish healer at best. Lol
come to us2 and watch klae burn down ladder when vale gets here :D
 
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Heykathster

Squirrel
Characters
Kaasan, Heyboo, Daanger, Ok Bumi
Platform
iOS, PC
Last edited
Ahh yea Iv only played sham to 65 without sockets and what not. So I’m still learning the way of the shaman. I just noticed I have a much easier time with mobs then I did with my lightning.
The hardest part about soloing raids with my earth shaman was my painful deficit in aoe. Our only real aoe is blasting. (Tremors just doesn't count. It is defacto aoe threat, only.)
 
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Halleebell

Squirrel
Characters
Hallee/Freyra
Platform
iOS, PC
The hardest part about soloing raids with my earth shaman was my painful deficit in aoe. Our only real aoe is blasting. (Tremors just doesn't count. It is defacto aoe threat, only.)
I only played a handful of raids with my sham. Most mobs are from the 60 zones and the handful from the few raids I did. Yea light has thunderstorm. then the chance for it to go off if you but points in the talent tree. So yeaaa they do have that. If you hit fast enough you can get it to trigger quite a bit.
 

Heykathster

Squirrel
Characters
Kaasan, Heyboo, Daanger, Ok Bumi
Platform
iOS, PC
***If anything, the focus should turn onto some of the other classes or subclasses that feel underwhelming and we should ask: "what can we do to make them fun and super competitive in their role and give them those "wow" moments that really bring that "I love my class" factor to the player?"
Can't agree with you more!!! And I agree with your entire post here. I feel like we are pretty competitively balanced overall and dont need to be messed with very much in any form. Not before ice wiz or water shammy get their day.
 

Black_Cvlt

Arch Wizard
Characters
Danger Zone, Black Cvlt, Coup de Grace, Crafty Hands, High Voltage
Platform
Android, PC
It's kinda rough if the weak link at Earth Shaman shouldn't get buffed, because Hybrid Shaman is OP.
I agree that earth sham is not the best tank. The point is, I don't want to see this priority in class balancing:
1) Buffs for earth sham
2) Nerfs for living water users. Maybe. Maybe not.
Without nerfs you can use something like this for earth shammy:
Low cd, very high aggro output, no mana cost penalty for heal spells while using water spirit, etc, etc...

It's better to fix imbalanced things first. After that we can think about rebalance for earth shammy.
 

Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
Is there any problem with water shammy?
In a purely healing role, 1 priest + 1 priest = 2 healers, while 1 water + 1 water = 1 healer. Hots don’t stack (or in some cases, even refresh) and 80% of all their heals (without a dmg component, like shield and tidal) are all hots... so raiding/95s with an extra water shaman; one of them is either dps or just dumping mana on the ground.
 

Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
Classes are different - inevitably that will mean in some situations some are better suited to what is needed in that situation.

The only way to solve that is to make all classes exactly the same, but what's the fun in that?

Surely, instead of trying to make all classes "balanced" what we need to think about is having varying content which draws on the advantages of all the different classes.
 

Halleebell

Squirrel
Characters
Hallee/Freyra
Platform
iOS, PC
Classes are different - inevitably that will mean in some situations some are better suited to what is needed in that situation.

The only way to solve that is to make all classes exactly the same, but what's the fun in that?

Surely, instead of trying to make all classes "balanced" what we need to think about is having varying content which draws on the advantages of all the different classes.
I agree. When you look at dps classes. Yea they’re all “trying” to be top dps one may be better then the other. But in reality they’re all different. They all have different roles. Ones that instant gratification another damage over time with poison. I still think a lights role is that one on one tanking( yes we can have more then one mob on us. But there’s a pretty good chance a few mobs will attack a hunter/wizard) while earth seems to be a more group stun em and destroy em type. They also can do more dps then a light it seems. Doesn’t mean their not tanking. Just means while a light has one the shammy can grab the rest.
 

Helos

Citizen
Characters
Helos, Helox, Heloq
Platform
iOS
Classes are always different this is true. But hamstringing one with mobility issues, inevitability puts them way behind the curve. It means starting the battle quite a bit later, which means always playing catch up. In our 95 groups and raid groups there will almost always be a lightning and an earth. The earth has to trot along while the battle has already begun. Which thereby means the threat will automatically be on the light, triggering spurring jolts, meaning the lightning warrior can spam further threat abilities making the lead even more staggering, thereby increasing their threat, meaning earth isn’t being struck to help them gain threat. This all amounts to shaman often being a back-up DPS, and due to their abilities (attune earth, erosion, diamond skin, water shield, wind shear, the list goes on) being utterly useless. No one wants to believe they don’t have a chance.

It’s similar to sinjin’s argument above…. More than one water shaman ? Cool, useless other than a gimped DPS. You’re response of having good group dynamics would be great…..except this is a super small game, with a fairly low population, and what you get for a group, is just what you get. With that logic in mind, if there’s always a lightning, then cool, I should re-roll a dps? Rather than try to play the clearly intended roll earth was designed for, yet always be a little disappointed?
 
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Giruv

Merchant
Royal Guardian
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Spurring Jolts: 40% boost to threat generation. The boost is active even when the Spurring Jolts effect is not triggered.
Instead of simply boosting threat like what we have now, I really like this idea from a while back, which has been reverted. I like this one, because it can make tank take turn tanking naturally.

I also would like to have more temporary threat spell like what Attune to Earth do for the same reason.
 

InSaNiA

Arch Wizard
Characters
ExPuRoSiOn (Fire Wiz), Hawkeye but Purple (Marksman)
Platform
Android
I haven't played both Lightning Warrior and Earth Shaman subclasses at all so IDK if what I'm going to say will make sense. But as a DPS role that receives tanking services, I feel like I should say a couple of things as what I've observed so far both in lvl95 Elders, Raids, and EZs:

Note: Consider all classes/toons as fully socketed, all legendary, lvl95s

1. LW pulls mobs easier and faster than ES because they have lower cooldowns and fast casting speed feats. But they can't hold aggro 100% of the time (especially in Raids) because they have lower damage compared to ES, and when there are huge critical damage dealers within the group. Coz let's be real, damage = threat, and this is why the top Fire Wizards and Shadow Priests often steal aggro from LWs (Elders? Raids? EZs? you name it)

2. LW has more sustainability than an ES. If I were to count the number of deaths, ES dies 4 out of 10 heroic raids while LW dies 1 out of 10. IDK which spells those are but I never heard an LW complain that they died because their sustains (immunity, mitigation, heal) are in CD, while ES die because their sustains are in CD. I can't count how many times I've heard a certain ES complain that she died coz her shield, heal or stun is down.

3. ES can't generate threat faster than how LWs do it, but ES can definitely hold aggro longer and better than LWs do in prolonged fights, simply because they have higher damage output than LWs. This makes ES better at tanking Elders themselves than those little groups of mini-bosses.

4. ES can help obliterate groups of mobs faster than LWs, simply because of the nature of their feats and the difference in damage dealt. An ES-HP-FW team can finish a heroic raid faster than an LW-HP-FW combo.

5. I agree with improving Gale Force (or whatever that dash thingy is called). Because from what I've noticed, it looks really sloppy and weird compared to how smooth LW's Charge is. They can improve the animation or add an AOE effect upon arrival. Like there's a blast of wind that strikes enemies within a radius, and can either deal damage or just generate threat. This makes the skill a bit decent, coz I've heard some people say that this skill is pure garbage.

So to summarize all the nonsense I've said:
1. For me, ES are tanks meant to hold the boss while the LW are tanks meant to pull and hold groups of mobs in a party setting. I don't know about you guys, but all LWs I teamed up or played with within our server can't hold aggro well from my FW, be it Elder, Raid, or EZ Bosses. There is always a 5 to 30-second duration in Elder Boss fights that my FW is somehow tanking and dying whenever the tank is an LW.

-Screenshot below is from Elder 95s in US2. These charts have one or two LWs. As you can see, no LW can't be seen, while an ES is, somehow, equipped with badassery and dealt damage worthy to be placed 3rd in all groups. I personally think this is enough proof that ES can hold Elder Bosses better than LW does.
1619730057844.png 1619730344145.png
1619731084211.png
(I have no idea how a Holy Priest got there, dude is nuts)

2. For me, ES is better at tanking Raids than LW in a party setting. Whenever my FW raids with an ES, I never have to tank anything, AT ALL. ABSOLUTELY. NO BRUISES, unless I mess up and Leeroy everything because I'm impatient. But whenever I'm with a LW, my FW is almost always, somehow, tanking the Raid Boss for a whole minute or two, worse, have to tank Prince and Egan from start to finish until they freaking die.

TLDR and Too Stupid to Read Above:
Earth Shamans and Lightning Warriors, for me, are pretty much balanced. They just have a slightly different way of tanking. Their differences are not like that of Fire and Ice, which are astronomical btw. Do I think something needs to be improved? IDK. Do I think one is better than the other? Yes but also No. Do I think I made sense? I absolutely have no idea. Do I think I flexed HeyBoo the Earth Shaman and Nett the Holy Priest of US2 too much? Absolutely NO.

Now roast me coz everything I said is false and utter nonsense and I'm a total noob in tanking, but I'm sure I'm not dumb or blind to not notice these things. You can correct me if I'm wrong tho.
 

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Heykathster

Squirrel
Characters
Kaasan, Heyboo, Daanger, Ok Bumi
Platform
iOS, PC
Last edited
Actually, InSaNiA, after the last 95s run, I wanted to pop back in here and say literally exactly all that you just said. But not nearly as succinctly or clearly.

I feel like earth sham is to tank what shadow priest is to damage. The longer I fight as both, the better I can grab aggro. But getting to groups early, pulling, etc. is just a huge pain— on both.

Whereas, lightning warrior is to tank what fire wiz is to damage. Pulls easily and quickly from the outset. Hits hard from the outset.

I couldn’t have said it better. Or agree more!! Would be fun to hear a few healer’s take on the difference between the two also.

(Although, admittedly, your experiences in raids with your ES dying could have more to do with her refusal to use water shield cuz she’s stubborn as all get out and a pain. Too. XD) — also she just barely (finally) lifestealed-up so let’s see what next raids season brings, yeah?) xD

Oh and let’s not forget to account for playstyle strengths/weaknesses.... I’m curious now to dps raids with a few different earth shams as tank and with a few different lighting war as tank.


**tldr: IF a super powerhouse dps has to pull punches to survive, they generally will have to do so at the beginning of the fight for shammy tank, and at the end for war tank.
 

InSaNiA

Arch Wizard
Characters
ExPuRoSiOn (Fire Wiz), Hawkeye but Purple (Marksman)
Platform
Android
I feel like earth sham is to tank what shadow priest is to damage. The longer I fight as both, the better I can grab aggro. But getting to groups early, pulling, etc. is just a huge pain— on both.

Whereas, lightning warrior is to tank what fire wiz is to damage. Pulls easily and quickly from the outset. Hits hard from the outset.
I agree with this 100%. We all know how crazy we fire wizards are with our flaming roller skates.

Think of this scenario:
1. FW blazes in first to throw massive AOEs to get the most out of Onslaught and to build up Flux, this puts all hate towards the FW. Then LW charges in to save the FW butt and threatens everything to get them off the FW. Rinse n repeat until Boss fight.

2. FW and SP duke it out in Elder Boss fights to see which one will do the most damage coz its the only place where they get to be competitive, resulting to EXTREMELY HIGH THREAT TO EITHER OF THEM. But let's be real, 95s are scaled and if this two subclasses hold back then good luck getting that Gold run. It's like telling 4 to 6 people to stop attacking so that the LW can hold aggro. This is where ES comes in. ES is the one that will trashtalk and throw pebbles to the boss and make it focus on ES only so the FW and SP dont have to hold back. No matter how much Brutal Force Combos and Marat's Fury+Mask of Deftness these two DPS have, they don't have to worry about getting hit at all, because ES is covering for them.

I've run hundreds of Elder 95s and Im sure those who are on the top of their game in US2 can testify/agree (may not be 100% but at least somehow, one way or another agree) to these things.

TLDR:
LW covers for the DPS subclasses against group of mini-bosses and mobs. ES covers for the DPS subclasses against long Boss fights.

So I don't really think something needs to be changed just to make these two tanks stand toe to toe with each other, coz they don't have to, they have different ways of tanking.

Now people might say, "But what about the mana issue for ES? THAT's what makes ES inferior to LW!" (Coz we all know everyone gets fired up with mana issues) Then might as well say that SPs are inferior to FWs coz an SP in US2 chugs stacks of mana, where as my FW use about 50-60 per run, and we deal almost the same damage by the end of the run.
 
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