Antavious

Warrior
Characters
Antavious, suoivatna
Platform
  1. iOS
Last edited
Group content is great, it’s in my opinion the best this game has to offer content wise. Grab a big group of players and bash up some big monster dozens of dpsers, a few healers and one tank…….hang on a minute only one tank?

well that’s the highlander for you (there can be only one) as it stands players who choose to walk the path of the turtle are a little under used in these big group boss fight and even start to do things like prioritise threat and dps generation well over defence just to get a look in.

the devs have been thinking about threat for a wile and when class balancing was more of a hot issue it was said that somehow having defensive players get more threat than offensive ones was a heathy choice but there wasn’t an obvious way forward with this.

I’ve been thinking on this too, what if bosses did more damage (scaled to party size) but spread the damage over many players? More specifically what if they spread the damage proportionally to the amount of threat a player was generating? I think this would remove the highlander effect from group content and change threat to be more of a mitigation tool in its self. No longer will there “be only one” several tanks could help mitigate the damage and being no.2 in threat will suddenly make an otherwise marginalised player vitally important in securing that all important and rewarding group victory.
 

Renaiss

Reader
I understand your suggestion, but I'm torn on whether or not I like the idea. This would've been a big help for my little earth shaman, because she was terrible when it came to threat. I'm not so sure it would've been great for my 2 hunters & shadow priest though. I guess I'm really thinking about the group combat in EZs, where it can be difficult to get a good mix of players: I can't count the number of times a group of DPS toons & a healer or two had to wait around for even one tank to show up! (Or how often we'd try to kill EZ bosses without a tank! 🤕) Still, I do think your idea has merit & is worth discussing.

Thanks for the Highlander reference: some of the movies (like the original) were pretty good, but I loved the series! 📺
 
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Antavious

Warrior
Characters
Antavious, suoivatna
Platform
  1. iOS
I understand your suggestion, but I'm torn on whether or not I like the idea. This would've been a big help for my little earth shaman, because she was terrible when it came to threat. I'm not so sure it would've been great for my 2 hunters & shadow priest though. I guess I'm really thinking about the group combat in EZs, where it can be difficult to get a good mix of players: I can't count the number of times a group of DPS toons & a healer or two had to wait around for even one tank to show up! (Or how often we'd try to kill EZ bosses without a tank! 🤕) Still, I do think your idea has merit & is worth discussing.

Thanks for the Highlander reference: some of the movies (like the original) were pretty good, but I loved the series! 📺
Fair comment, it could go either way. It’s true fewer people play tanks but maybe that’s because of the highlander effect in the first place? Also because this proposed idea will mean more damage to higher threat participants there will be more incentive to use threat reduction class token feats to make absolutely sure your not in the line of fire or are only taking a % of damage you can handle.
 

Dawnfire

Lumineer
Royal Guardian
Characters
Athon Dawnfire
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
I think this is a convoluted solution to the only one tank needed problem. It's hard to keep track of (you'd constantly need to watch the threat meter) and it could be either underused and unnoticed if one tank really does majority of the threat, or some burst dps would just suddenly get one shot and would have no clue why. Having a mechanic like this on a boss or two would be fine though.

I'd rather see they either reduce instance sizes (like 20-30 players per zone), this could let a few more tanks be utilized. But also adding group encounters where multiple tanks are necessary (like two bosses who if they stand close to each other become invulnerable or deal very high damage). Also having some new feats/stats/fabled set that utilizes threat generation/tankiness to deal more damage, so even if you aren't tanking you can still be a valuable asset.
 
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Antavious

Warrior
Characters
Antavious, suoivatna
Platform
  1. iOS
I think this is a convoluted solution to the only one tank needed problem. It's hard to keep track of (you'd constantly need to watch the threat meter) and it could be either underused and unnoticed if one tank really does majority of the threat, or some burst dps would just suddenly get one shot and would have no clue why. Having a mechanic like this on a boss or two would be fine though.

I'd rather see they either reduce instance sizes (like 20-30 players per zone), this could let a few more tanks be utilized. But also adding group encounters where multiple tanks are necessary (like two bosses who if they stand close to each other become invulnerable or deal very high damage). Also having some new feats/stats/fabled set that utilizes threat generation/tankiness to deal more damage, so even if you aren't tanking you can still be a valuable asset.
Well it wouldn’t work in a single target healing way if that’s what you’re saying. It would be more validating for aoe heals. But honestly a good tank can keep themselves in relatively good shape healing wise on their own. the only time a dps can actually produce enough threat to out pace a tank is if they start the fight prematurely. Unless your talking from the perspective of the classic “strip your defence down to the bare minimum“ off tank, but they can’t run without healers glued to them anyway as is. I definitely think the mechanic would need to be tested/tried out on one boss before implementing anywhere else to see how it goes.

i like the idea of at least one boss that is actually two bosses needing two tanks. The devs previous attempts at this are quite obvious (baldok, yithel, chaminder) but didn’t quite hit the mark.
 

Renaiss

Reader
Two quick points.
1) Why do the threat increases from the tanks' talent trees have to be limited to a total of 100%? It may seem silly to increase threat by more than 100% if all the ultimate talents are used, but some players may opt to put talent points elsewhere (like boosting their mana or health) and not get the benefit of the full 100% anyway. Neither lightning warriors nor earth shamans get any threat increase from their 10-point ultimate, but even a 5% increase could help, especially for lower-level tanks. (I would also increase the 30-point ultimate to at least 45%, for a total of 110% if every ultimate is utilized.) For any skeptics who think you can't go over 100%, try telling that to Amazon, because I'm pretty sure an overnight price increase from $10.99 to $23.99 is more than 100%! 🧮😲 Anyway, increasing the threat generation available from the talents might encourage more tanks to focus on defense instead of being totally offensive. 🤣 (Sorry, but I couldn't resist!)
2) One reason tanks may suffer a bit in popularity is what they look like during character selection: especially the females. New players may assume, as I did, that the outfits they see during character selection is what they'll wear throughout the game. The tanks' outfits in character selection are quite masculine looking, and not very flattering to female toons. If this were improved, even a little, maybe more girls/women would choose to play tanks. Female tanks don't need hair bows & lace-trimmed armor, but neither should ta female earth shaman's starting outfit make her hips look like they've been stung by killer bees! 🐝

the devs have been thinking about threat for a wile and when class balancing was more of a hot issue it was said that somehow having defensive players get more threat than offensive ones was a heathy choice but there wasn’t an obvious way forward with this.
This was definitely more of a hot issue when everyone was still talking about the class "balancing", and it does seem to have fallen by the wayside since then. As someone who has been forced by circumstances to try to tank with hunters (& twice with a very low-level shadow priest), I can attest to how important real tanks are in this game. The advantage tanks bring to the game is their ability to stand there, taking the enemy's blows, thereby allowing the squishier toons to keep a safe distance. Of course, tanks need to be able to do damage, or they'd never finish any solo content, but if they don't have good defenses, are they really a tank or are they just a slightly less squishy DPS toon?
I'd rather see they either reduce instance sizes (like 20-30 players per zone), this could let a few more tanks be utilized. But also adding group encounters where multiple tanks are necessary (like two bosses who if they stand close to each other become invulnerable or deal very high damage). Also having some new feats/stats/fabled set that utilizes threat generation/tankiness to deal more damage, so even if you aren't tanking you can still be a valuable asset.
These are some interesting ideas! I like the idea of two bosses who, if they're near each other, need two tanks to tackle them. (Kind of like the old days in The Haunted Moors: when things sometimes spawned together. I always had to ask which one to kill first, lol.) I also like the idea of new feats, etc. to actually cause more damage based on threat generation. This might make threat generation from the talents more useful, especially as long as damage and threat are linked as they are now. I'm not sure if having fewer players per instance would work on some servers, at least at certain times of the day. On US3, many players are in the Eastern time zone, and it was sometimes difficult to find even one good tank when those players were offline. Kind of sucked for night owls living west of the Rockies. 🦉🕰️
 

Grz

Reader
Platform
  1. Android
Baldok, ironically, is the smartest enemy we have in VnH. He'll seek a new target occasionally unlike everyone else who will lock into the same top threat generator forever as if they can't get a hint. Maybe every elder boss should do that and be the new mechanic for all.

If I remember correctly, a tank is only allowed to hold up to 5 enemies at a time. The others then seek another target. If they reduce that to 3, then we'll definitely need tank #2, who is currently not very useful. This could help too. Now playing Lightning Warrior #2 wouldn't feel so lame anymore.
 

Antavious

Warrior
Characters
Antavious, suoivatna
Platform
  1. iOS
Baldok, ironically, is the smartest enemy we have in VnH. He'll seek a new target occasionally unlike everyone else who will lock into the same top threat generator forever as if they can't get a hint. Maybe every elder boss should do that and be the new mechanic for all.

If I remember correctly, a tank is only allowed to hold up to 5 enemies at a time. The others then seek another target. If they reduce that to 3, then we'll definitely need tank #2, who is currently not very useful. This could help too. Now playing Lightning Warrior #2 wouldn't feel so lame anymore.
Baldok, pumpkin head (and yithel but only if the fight goes on a bit long) all have an effect where they can lower/remove the main tanks threat and there ability to generate threat for a small period of time. these are encounters where a second tank helps keep others safe And are a minor exception to the ”highlander” rule.

the limit of melee targets that can hit a single player at anyone time is 6 but more mobs in general have a funny quirk I call a “threat vacuum“. basically if one player is being hit by 3 or mobs it becomes a priority target and overrides threat entirely attracting every nearby mob even a boss. Any player can get one of these vacuums and it can’t be broken until enough mobs die to lower the numbers. It’s great to get a vacuum when your a full defence tank but a total nightmare for anyone else. you only really see this effect in boss fights where lots of adds spawn few good examples: sugerised glazefin, pumpkin head, grichta.
 
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Yuriza

Jack Of All Trades
Characters
Yuriza, Gaia Xiao, Apollymi, Hari, Shaysisisisislia
Platform
  1. Android
Couldn't the token have a third rune or a reinforcement rune to either amplify threat or less it? As it is now, how many actually use the other token rune (veil of ####)?

These also could give an introduction to a jewelry spec hehe
 
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Firebird

Wizard
Platform
  1. PC
I use veil all the time along with grave bolt to pull bounties from a group. Just hit veil, then use a single feat on target , it usually pulls it. It does sometimes fail as does grave bolt but having two trinkets that pull really helps in places like pyrron or cloisters.
 

Yuriza

Jack Of All Trades
Characters
Yuriza, Gaia Xiao, Apollymi, Hari, Shaysisisisislia
Platform
  1. Android
Last edited
I use veil all the time along with grave bolt to pull bounties from a group. Just hit veil, then use a single feat on target , it usually pulls it. It does sometimes fail as does grave bolt but having two trinkets that pull really helps in places like pyrron or cloisters.
Still could have a better use for a spell that 2 min 30 sec CD -.-
Or maybe combine the two , mastery with threat remove (for DPS/ healer classes) and create the opposite mastery with threat multipler (for tanks)
 
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