KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Last edited
Below is a list of issues I have with the current talent tree. I'll breakdown each point in its own individual section before moving on to a potential design solution.
  • Guidance
  • Progression
  • Utility
  • Prerequisites
  • Congestion
  • Build Diversity

Problem Breakdown

Guidance
A new player's first impression of the talent tree are 3 blank slates, ripe with possibility. This can often be overwhelming though, and it is common to see new players ask how they should allot their available talent points. Generally, the initial foray into talents should involve a bit more guidance and structure before branching out.

Progression
The progression system for talents feels very linear and most cases involve simply filling from the top row to the bottom. Additionally, as the player begins investing in talents which require more points, they start to stagnate until they unlock that talent's Ultimate. For example, let's say I want to maximize the following talent:
1619877499328.png
For the next 30 or so levels I will have to incrementally build this talent up with little noticeable change in my day to day play-style. This does not feel exciting for players especially as they begin to reach rows which require up to 40 points to complete. The solution is to reduce the number of points required per talent while adding additional talent options. We'll explore this in more detail later though.

Utility
If a player wants to shift points from one talent to another, they must reset their entire tree which can involve hundreds of follow-up clicks. Players should have the ability to strip the points of a particular talent and also use sliders to quickly fill an entire talent row.

Prerequisites
There are times where I want a particular ultimate, but have no use for its associated talent. Often, a talent and an ultimate have little to do with one another, but they are still linked. For example, look at Brilliant and Bright and Cauterize in the Fire Wizard tree. Brilliant and Bright involves a cooldown-wiping property whereas Cauterize grants self-healing. These two abilities have nothing in common, and yet Cauterize is a prerequisite for Brilliant and Bright for some reason. Only talents that specifically build off of each other should be linked. Otherwise they should remain on their own.

Congestion
The talent tree has been starting to feel congested. There are cases where a single talent or ultimate will provide multiple completely different bonuses to the character simply because there was not enough room on the tree to support a separate ultimate.

For example, Dragon's Fury in the Fury Tree has 3 separate perks
1619877460768.png
Another example is Scion of the Elements in the Wind tree, providing 4 separate perks
1619877480570.png
The solution is to detach these into individual talents which offers players precise choice into where exactly they wish to invest their points.

Build Diversity
All of the above points feed into the current lack of talent build diversity, where many players build their talents in the exact same order and setup. There simply isn't much room for deviation with the current system when the main talent tree can be entirely filled out by a capped player.

Suggestion

With these problems in mind, I suggest converting the talent system into a more traditional tree-like structure. The goals of this new design include: freedom of choice, precise investment, greater structure, ease of use and hopefully superior build diversity.

Here is an illustrated example for the Fury Tree.

Please note that I did not include the entire tree, nor did I put great care or emphasis on their ordering and structure! It's really cumbersome to create the diagrams so I only put a portion of what it would actually resemble.
1619876542923.png
Let's break down some of the significant changes!

Sections
You'll notice that the tree is broken up into 3 different sections.
1619876149504.png
These sections are used to represent the Main Role, Secondary Role, and Utility Role of the class. The Main Role for Fury would of course be DPS and damage. For players who wish to focus mainly on hitting hard, they will place greater emphasis on the talents and abilities in this tree.

The Secondary Role is another path that players can take. For Fury's case it is more of an emphasis on using Warcries and other support abilities. This varies based on class, just like the Main Role does. For example, a Holy Priest's main role would be as support and healing while their secondary role could be more on damage.

Finally, the Utility section has the general mana, health and stat related bonuses. Additionally, each sub-class will have a few unique stat-breaker boosts here that align with that class. For Fury Warriors I placed Cooldown Rate and Attack Speed to start with. Essentially, each sub-class will be able to build up specific stats higher than other sub-classes. For Lightning and Earth Shaman for example this may be the Armor and Magic Resist stats. The goal is to diversify stats a bit through the talent tree.

Abilities
You'll notice that abilities are included in the talent tree! If I had the time and will then I would have added every single ability to the tree, but just imagine that they're there. I do believe that abilities should be in the player's talents rather than slotted onto weaponry. Players would no longer have to farm for abilities every few levels with this change. Yes, that does mean less socket usage on weapons, but there are better ways to increase socket usage such as through Relics. Critical components like spells should not cost sockets.. optional bonuses and perks such as Relics should cost sockets, because they are not imperative to one's build.
1619877735323.png

Utility
I added a + and - option so players can easily increase or decrease the point allotment of any particular talent. You'll also notice the number of points required to maximize a particular talent has been dropped down to 3. This is because we want players to have earn and unlock new talent perks frequently so that the game always feels fresh and exciting for them as they level.
1619876821065.png

Prerequisites
Notice how some arrows still exist in the tree. These are prerequisites, but they are only used in situations where one talent directly builds off of another.
1619876860550.png

Diversity
You may be wondering, with this point decrease, wouldn't that mean players will have enough talents to fill out every single talent and have even closer setups? Keep in mind that we are also breaking up ultimates that had multiple components into separate talents, adding spells to the talent tree and adding new stat-breaker talents. With these new options, will be see a much larger talent tree for players to explore.

Hopefully all of this was clear, but if not, here is a better image from online that sort of depicts what I was going for.
1619876915826.png

To summarize, I suggest that each sub-class has their own unique talent tree which is split into 3 sections:
  • Main Role Talents and Spells
  • Secondary Role Talents and Spells
  • Utility Talents and Spells
The number of points required per talent has been dramatically reduced while the number of talent options were significantly increased, meaning players can unlock more talents without having carbon copy builds of one another. Prerequisites still exist, but only to a limited degree and restricted to talents that specifically build off of one another. Spells were added to the talent tree, so that players no longer need to farm for runes. And finally, greater utility options were added for quick talent adjustment.

Please post your own thoughts and feedback on the talent system!
 

Constantine ElSheba

Arch Wizard
Characters
ElSheba
Platform
Android
I think the reason the devs put spells on weapons because they wanted us to craft them, to farm them and to trade them to other players equipment that we don't need (I'm ice wizard but most dropped equipment is for fire wizard (-_-)).
Spells on weapons are the only thing that I don't like in this game, but I like the game to much to bother me anyway.
So instead to farm for weapons for spells, let's farm them for augmentation runes to improve the spells. I think the only spells that we can farm for are the ones on trinkets since those can be used by all classes.
And the points value of augmentation runes should be higher to make them worth farming them for.
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Last edited
I think the reason the devs put spells on weapons because they wanted us to craft them, to farm them and to trade them to other players equipment that we don't need (I'm ice wizard but most dropped equipment is for fire wizard (-_-)).
Spells on weapons are the only thing that I don't like in this game, but I like the game to much to bother me anyway.
So instead to farm for weapons for spells, let's farm them for augmentation runes to improve the spells. I think the only spells that we can farm for are the ones on trinkets since those can be used by all classes.
And the points value of augmentation runes should be higher to make them worth farming them for.
Exactly! I think it would be really neat if you could find Spell Mods for your weapons instead, as you hinted at. So while the spell itself would be unlocked and retained through the talent tree, you could farm for mods which would modify certain properties of that spell and customize it even further.

For example, say you have Poison Shot unlocked through your talents:
1619880083423.png
Then, you go hunting out in the wild and slay a powerful boss who drops a bow. This bow could have a poison shot modifier on it and if equipped on your weapon, it would slighter alter how your poison shot worked. Some example modifiers are:
  • Beathags Poison Shot: Modifies Poison Shot to deal bonus damage on the final tick
  • Zitiki's Venom Arrow: Modifies Poison Shot by boosting the tick speed by 25%
  • Gaamkira's Toxins: Modifies Poison Shot by leeching 30% of the damage per tick back to you as healing
Players can only have 1 Modifier per spell active at a time, so it's a tough choice that creates entirely new builds from player to player.

These modifiers could either be physical runes which must be attached to the player's weapon to take effect, or they could be added to the talent tree and cost a point to unlock, like so:
1619880423267.png

I think both routes could work out in the end and have their own pros and cons. Having physical runes helps with world building and makes loot much more interesting as you never know what useful spell mods you could find. On the other hand, having them on the talent tree makes them more convenient and easier to swap in and out. Curious which one players prefer, if any.
 

Constantine ElSheba

Arch Wizard
Characters
ElSheba
Platform
Android
And this all classes should be redone to be more specialised than just have something from every class.
For example, in the thread "collection of ice wizard memes" (page 2) Sinjin posted this
Myth 2: Ice is the “Buffing/Debuffing Support Class”



Buffing Mana Regen - nope, that’s on hunter, priests and fire wiz

Buffing Attack Speed - unh-uh, that goes to hunters and warriors

Buffing Player Cooldown - sorry, that’s a Hunter buff.

Restore Mana - nope, that’s a shaman thing

Heal Others - newp, that’s hunters, priests and shaman.

Cure Others - no, priest and shaman

Runspeed Buff - not ice, that’s shaman and hunters

Player Mastery Buff - Players standing on the wiz the whole time get a max of 6 percent more mastery (mastery, not ability power), for up to 2 seconds, once every 4 minutes. Of course, buffing mastery is not specific to ice wiz; warriors have it, priests and hunters both have player mastery buffs that can have greater uptime and no positioning requirement (and with Steady, it’s 100% uptime... not the max benefit for 2 seconds every 4 minutes).

Debuf Mob Armor/Magic Resist - Ice does have 20% debuff to mob A/MR... the shaman’s is 60% (wind shear is 40%, rock bite 20%).

Debuf Mob Heal Rate - no again, that’s a Fury thing

Debuf Mob Damage - not ice. That’s shadow, fire and marksman

Debuf Mob Crit Chance - em, no. that’s a shaman thing

Debuf Mob Attack Speed - Ice does have one. If the mobs stand in a small pbaoe range for 20 seconds, they’ll get de-hasted. It averages out to a 15% debuf over its entire duration of 20 seconds (if the mob stands next to the wiz for the full 20 seconds) and it has a 4 minute cooldown.

The shaman attack speed debuf is st, but does the same amount and has a 30 second cooldown. The Hunter atk speed debuf is passive, has a greater uptime, costs 0 mana, and has no cooldown.



So Ice are not the best at ‘crowd control’, they’re not the best at “buffing players” or “debuffing mobs” and they’re the weakest dps.
This is a good summary of what classes do.
That's why everything should be redone and have them like this (this is just my opinion based on all talents and runes of all classes) :

• lighting warrior do tanking, pulling aggro and demoralize the enemies
• fury warrior goes berserk, buffs allies with a war cry and buff itself with brutality
• fire wizard does high area damage, removes threat from enemies and steals mana from enemies
• ice wizard does area damage, heals allies with mana and stun the enemies
• holy priest blesses allies with healing over time, destroys enemies with holy power and reduce debuffs on allies
• shadow priest deals damage over time by cursing the enemy, buffs allies with magic resist and steals health from enemy
• marksman hunter deals high crit damage per target, buffs allies with haste, mastery in combat and speed out combat
• nature hunter deals high damage over time by poisoning the enemy, camouflage and heals itself and increase critical damage increase mana for allies
• water shaman will instantly heal allies, does area damage and mana heals itself
• earth shaman does area damage, protects its allies with earth shields and reduces armor of enemies

Now i wrote that ice wizards stun the enemies. I mean stuns that are longer and ignore the shields of enemies that make the stuns useless. This was already pointed out by players in some threads.
I know that I'll be hated by some people but other classes beside holy priest and water shaman shouldn't heal others beside themselves.
the same for ice wizard and nature hunter with mana heal. lighting warrior and earth shaman for tanking. etc

Below I'll suggest that each class have a special ability that is unique.

  • ice wizard - Invincible - cloaks a target with a cristaline shield, granting immunity to everything for x sec.
  • fire wizard - Fire god/dess - cloaks a target with fire, adding the x fire mastery of the caster to the target, burning the enemy for x sec.
  • holy priest - Resurrection - mark a target with a holy sign. when the target dies in battle, the mark will burn and the target will come back alive intact. the target can only be revived once in x min.
  • shadow priest - Mark of Discordia - Mark your enemy so that its allies will turn against it (the enemy). can be cast x times.
  • nature hunter - Child of the forest - escape the visible range of the enemy for x sec, becoming one with nature while still in combat.
  • marksman hunter - Pure arrow - Shot an arrow of pure energy, ignoring all enemy shields and resist. can be cast x times.
  • lightning warrior - Ultimate sacrifice - convert all the health and mana into damage before dying. it can be cast on another target. it can be cast only once in x min.
  • fury warrior - War god/dess - after being cast,every hit you get will stack, the damage value received will become swords that shows above the head. once five swords are formed, those are launched against the enemy reflecting the damage received. can be cast once in x min.
  • water shaman - Water cloning - cast a water mark on a target, creating up to five clones of target made of water, making the clones take the damage instead of the target. can be cast once in x min.
  • earth shaman - Earth alchemist - create a golem that copies the target stats to fight the enemy. can be cast once in x min.
Some of the special abilities are found on some classes like resurrection that is found on warrior but I added it to a healer, after all it's a healer's job. Some are on the same classes so I turned them into special abilities. some I extended them to be cast on allies,some inspired from other posts and some just invented.
Apart from mark of discordia, child of the forest, war god/dess and pure arrow, the others can be cast on allies and if there is no ally on oneself. These abilities can be unlocked in the new tree talent system, but I still haven't thought of when or how. I will leave it to others to judge.
Open to any opinion.
 
Reactions: Sinjin and ishanroyc
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Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
I love the idea of ‘convert remaining health/mana to dmg and die’... like, turn people into Claymores. I especially like that it’s castable on others. The loot gods require a blood sacrifice, and I have no problems performing the rite on other players :p
 

Constantine ElSheba

Arch Wizard
Characters
ElSheba
Platform
Android
I love the idea of ‘convert remaining health/mana to dmg and die’... like, turn people into Claymores. I especially like that it’s castable on others. The loot gods require a blood sacrifice, and I have no problems performing the rite on other players :p
I thought of it to be used like that first but then I saw in the talent tree of warriors the resurrection thing and let the healer get the resurrection. The healer marks the tank and the tank can use it after, maybe in the middle of the fight with elder bosses or smth like that.
But I admit I was a bit evil when I thought of it 😸. Guilty
 

Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
Yeah, you were thinking of it as a castable Rez buff that rezs someone if they die while it’s active. I envisioned it as a ‘sacrifice the afk’er at the raid entrance’ :evilgrin:
 

Constantine ElSheba

Arch Wizard
Characters
ElSheba
Platform
Android
Last edited
I will modify a bit the spells:
ice wizard - Invincible - cloaks a target with a cristaline shield, granting immunity to everything for x sec.
- and nullifying all debuffs received, all cooldowns terminated, and if the target is wounded of short of mana, he/she will be healed and mana recharged.


fire wizard - Fire god/dess - cloaks a target with fire, adding the x fire mastery of the caster to the target, burning the enemy for x sec.
- and burning 50% of the damage received.


shadow priest - Mark of Discordia - Mark your enemy so that its allies will turn against it (the enemy). can be cast x times.
- the spell will be active as long the casting priest is alive.
- in case of enemies that summon other enemies, the mark will only affect enemies that were summoned before casting the mark.


nature hunter - Child of the forest - escape the visible range of the enemy for x sec, becoming one with nature while still in combat.
- the forest will also increase nature mastery by 30%.


marksman hunter - Pure arrow - Shot an arrow of pure energy, ignoring all enemy shields and resist. can be cast x times.
- also ignoring zone buffs on enemies and debuffs on player



lightning warrior - Ultimate sacrifice - convert all the health and mana into damage before dying. it can be cast on another target. it can be cast only once in x min.
- cannot be casted on another target.
- the converted damage is doubled
- after normal reviving in battle ( voltan resurrection) all stats beside health regen and mana regen are reduced by 10%. Health regen and mana regen are increased by 10 %.



All these special abilities can be unlocked after reaching a certain lv and unlocking some talents in the new talent tree.

Maybe I'll think of unique abilities for arcane, wind, discipline, survival, balance. Like this players won't just be restricted to the main sub classes. Maybe combining the two sub classes or smth like that.




Exactly! I think it would be really neat if you could find Spell Mods for your weapons instead, as you hinted at. So while the spell itself would be unlocked and retained through the talent tree, you could farm for mods which would modify certain properties of that spell and customize it even further.

For example, say you have Poison Shot unlocked through your talents:
View attachment 12529
Then, you go hunting out in the wild and slay a powerful boss who drops a bow. This bow could have a poison shot modifier on it and if equipped on your weapon, it would slighter alter how your poison shot worked. Some example modifiers are:
  • Beathags Poison Shot: Modifies Poison Shot to deal bonus damage on the final tick
  • Zitiki's Venom Arrow: Modifies Poison Shot by boosting the tick speed by 25%
  • Gaamkira's Toxins: Modifies Poison Shot by leeching 30% of the damage per tick back to you as healing
Players can only have 1 Modifier per spell active at a time, so it's a tough choice that creates entirely new builds from player to player.

These modifiers could either be physical runes which must be attached to the player's weapon to take effect, or they could be added to the talent tree and cost a point to unlock, like so:
View attachment 12530

I think both routes could work out in the end and have their own pros and cons. Having physical runes helps with world building and makes loot much more interesting as you never know what useful spell mods you could find. On the other hand, having them on the talent tree makes them more convenient and easier to swap in and out. Curious which one players prefer, if any.
Well I was referring to augmentation runes to increase the potency of the spells in the talent tree but I like your idea better.
You unlock the spell in the talent tree by spending a point when reaching the lv or unlocking some talents. The spell will have a base mastery or damage point etc that will have a small increase with each lv since you can't lv it with points in the talent tree. By farming and crafting weapons the spell will have the potency even more increased from the augmentation runes from these weapons.
Now some spells will have some modifiers in the talent tree to unlock by getting a rune from a dropped weapon. These mods will always be unlocked even if the next weapon doesn't have the rune anymore but it will be inactive if you don't select it. But this rune is counted as an augmentation rune not a spell. Ex:
It means you have the spell Poison shot and it's three modifiers with base +10 % damage that will depend on the spell'mastery. Finding runes on dropped weapons of on crafted ones it will increase that % of dmg.
 

Constantine ElSheba

Arch Wizard
Characters
ElSheba
Platform
Android
Yeah, you were thinking of it as a castable Rez buff that rezs someone if they die while it’s active. I envisioned it as a ‘sacrifice the afk’er at the raid entrance’ :evilgrin:
Maybe we should suggest some penalties for that ones. Like having a dmg chart or the numer of kills or the raid will record if they passed the obstacles or the initial raid door.
 

Constantine ElSheba

Arch Wizard
Characters
ElSheba
Platform
Android
And now for those who like to make hybrid builds:
  • arcane wizard - Purgatory - combine the ice and fire into frostfire and cast it upon your enemies, make them feel your pain. Everytime the enemy hits you, the enemy will take damage double the hit value it did for x sec.
  • balance priest - Crepuscular judgement - cast this array upon the enemies. Make them damage themselves instead of you for x sec.
  • survival hunter - Natural killer - envelope the battlefield with your bloodlust, increasing the dodge rate of allies by 20% for x sec. And shoot a living arrow that can be manipulated into a chain hit, hiting up to 5 enemies. If there are less than 5 enemies, the remaining shots of the arrow will hit the enemy with the highest amount of health.
  • wind shaman - Whisper in the wind - use your wind to call the last boss you defeated to the battlefield to fight for you for x sec. Cannot call elder bosses.
  • discipline warrior - Thunder aegis - cast a lightning rain upon the entire battlefield for x sec. The allies will be protected by the aegis shield, increasing their masteries with 50% of the caster's mastery. The enemies will be pierced by lightning bolts, reducing their armor by 80%.
 

Constantine ElSheba

Arch Wizard
Characters
ElSheba
Platform
Android
Not only diversifying the talent tree but also adding more. We didn't even reach Sunkentooth but the cap lv is 95. Until all the realms are unlocked I think the lv will reach lv 200 if not beyond. After all if we gain 1 talent point like usual by that lv we can even fill all 3 subclasses.
I don't know if they will introduce more rebirths, but personally I don't really like it. Those are ok for levels up 100 but beyond it will be a real pain in the forehead to rebirth and reach again that lv. I dread the day I have to use the last rebirth. Maybe at the true endgame can we fill up all subclasses of the talent tree but for now no.
So I was thinking that separate the talent tree like you said but make the talents require a non fixed number of points. Some 3, some 5, some more. And if there are talent chain that require for a talent to be filled to unlock the next, the points requirement should be lower. For example I have a talent A that has 5 points to fill to unlock the next talent B. Instead to fill all 5 for A to unlock B, let be require that A should be filled with 3 points to unlock B.
The same for spells that are originally in the talent tree, and an additional requirement for spells originally from weapons should be the lv and first time equipping a weapon with the augmentation runes for spells.
The only difference are the special abilities that should be unlocked when reaching lv 100 and having at least 60% of talents unlocked from the main subclass.
 
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