Steam Conversion

[Aord]

You are trying to compare eggs to apples. Since the game actually works on both platforms, it's completely realistic to expect the same content available, including any existing characters. Moreover, it's incorrect to point at Steam saying "They do not allow us to provide you with uniform experience **insert lots of valid explanations here**"

How does the game know it's YOU logging into Steam?
Well, that's because they keep some PlayerID in their database saying that such-and-such Steam account matches this ID with these characters available. Steam authenticates YOU and the game server authorizes YOU to access your characters.
Simple?

Now make the next step. You log into your mobile V&H client, what does the game know about you? The database says that such-and-such Mobile account matches some AnotherPlayerID, thus resulting in different set of characters. Mobile game client authenticates YOU but the game server thinks YOU are another person (since the ID is not the same) so YOU cannot access the same characters in Mobile client.
Correct?

Now let's make the final step. If developer has any way to know that PlayerID and AnotherPlayerID belong to the same person, operating on two different devices, it will be easy to make authorization work the same both in Steam client and Mobile client. In other multiplatform games it's possible to generate special password that works across devices to make the link between PlayerID and AnotherPlayerID.

Notice I'm saying it's the authorization, not authentication. Because authorization works inside game client and is solely supported by client developer. Authentication in based on Steam and out of question here because you cannot change the way Steam works.

Two final words to confirm we are on the same page: "Authentication means confirming your own identity, whereas authorization means being allowed access to the system."

 

[Majenta]

You are trying to compare eggs to apples. Since the game actually works on both platforms, it's completely realistic to expect the same content available, including any existing characters. Moreover, it's incorrect to point at Steam saying "They do not allow us to provide you with uniform experience **insert lots of valid explanations here**"

How does the game know it's YOU logging into Steam?
Well, that's because they keep some PlayerID in their database saying that such-and-such Steam account matches this ID with these characters available. Steam authenticates YOU and the game server authorizes YOU to access your characters.
Simple?

Now make the next step. You log into your mobile V&H client, what does the game know about you? The database says that such-and-such Mobile account matches some AnotherPlayerID, thus resulting in different set of characters. Mobile game client authenticates YOU but the game server thinks YOU are another person (since the ID is not the same) so YOU cannot access the same characters in Mobile client.
Correct?

Now let's make the final step. If developer has any way to know that PlayerID and AnotherPlayerID belong to the same person, operating on two different devices, it will be easy to make authorization work the same both in Steam client and Mobile client. In other multiplatform games it's possible to generate special password that works across devices to make the link between PlayerID and AnotherPlayerID.

Notice I'm saying it's the authorization, not authentication. Because authorization works inside game client and is solely supported by client developer. Authentication in based on Steam and out of question here because you cannot change the way Steam works.

Two final words to confirm we are on the same page: "Authentication means confirming your own identity, whereas authorization means being allowed access to the system."

You seem to be missing one crucial point. Steam accounts use your Steam log in details. All other platforms use your email and password to log in. You cannot log in to a steam account without steam details, and you cannot log in to SAC, Android or iOS without a username and password.

Steam "owns" your steam log in, and for contractual reasons, Mad Otter cannot bypass the Steam log in for a steam account to allow steam players to log in to their accounts on eg mobile. For perfectly logical and understandable reasons, Valve do not want their customers logging in and purchasing crowns etc using googleplay or apple store. If you have an SAC account you can link that into to Steam as described by Ivar in post 55 of this thread (though why you would want to is beyond me).

What you cannot do is play a steam account using a non steam platform. And no matter how often you explain how it could be done, the fact remains you can't do it because Valve won't let you do it.

 

[Aord]

I just can repeat: you are confusing authentication (Steam) with authorization (game server). I like how you emphasize the word "contractual" even though I stated multiple times by now authorization has NOTHING to do with Steam, authentication does.

Install Hades Star on Android, start playing, do some stuff.
Install Hades Star on Steam.
Follow the guide here to link Steam client to Mobile client.
Now you can access the same home star system from both clients. Takes 2 minutes.
Impossible? Far from it.

 

[Majenta]

I just can repeat: you are confusing authentication (Steam) with authorization (game server). I like how you emphasize the word "contractual" even though I stated multiple times by now authorization has NOTHING to do with Steam, authentication does.

Install Hades Star on Android, start playing, do some stuff.
Install Hades Star on Steam.
Follow the guide here to link Steam client to Mobile client.
Now you can access the same home star system from both clients. Takes 2 minutes.
Impossible? Far from it.

So far as I am aware, what you are describing here is already possible.
Create an account by installing and playing on Android. Download SAC and use same account details. Link that SAC account into steam as described in post 55. Done. (Though as I mentioned above I cannot see any advantage in doing so.)
What you cannot do is create a steam account, a separate mobile/SAC account and expect to be able to play the steam characters using the mobile account or the mobile/SAC account characters on steam.

I would also point out one fundamental difference between the Hades example and V and H. Reading the link you gave, this is Steam allowing a link from a pre-existing mobile game to join the steam platform (ie it is potentially bringing customers to Steam from elsewhere). What you are suggesting and we are pointing out is impossible because Valve prevent it, is Steam allowing a pre-existing Steam game to move to mobile (ie potentially taking customers away from Steam). And once again, I point out that the issue is contractual, not technical.

 

[Aord]

1) No, it works both ways
2) No, I am a pre-existing Mobile player wanting to bring my business to Steam but I have to use some circumvent ways via standalone client (I do not need Steam in this case at all).

 

[Majenta]

1) No, it works both ways
2) No, I am a pre-existing Mobile player wanting to bring my business to Steam but I have to use some circumvent ways via standalone client (I do not need Steam in this case at all).

I have to ask - if you don't need steam, why not just play on PC (using the SAC) and mobile using the single, fully cross platform account? Why is steam necessary at all?

 

[Aord]

The reason I was stating in one of my initial posts above - Steam/Proton does much better job at running this game on Linux than Wine. Steam is going to benefit if more players can just jump in and continue what they already had in Mobile version. You say "No", but I'd actually like developers (amazing team honestly, I never encountered such open and nice dev team in any game to-date) to maybe take a look at how other titles achieve Steam to Mobile seamless play. If it can be achieved here as well, I think many many players would be very very happy.

 

[Littlenymph]

Perhaps the current conversation would be a good one for Steam,
On Steam.

 

[Aord]

Technically what you are asking for can be done but contractually it can not, unless a new contract is written and accepted by both V&H and Steam. Contracts are binding agreements which are enforceable by law. Therefore, this is not a technical problem but a legal one.

Before mentioning contracts you'd better read the one you are referring to. Check your facts first.
Valve/Steam directly says app developers could link 3rd party accounts to Steam ID.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/auth

Linking third-party accounts to Steam accounts
Third-party accounts can be linked to Steam accounts by associating a user's SteamID with the 3rd party account.

A user's SteamID can be securely retrieved either in-game or through a web browser and once the initial association has occurred, you can safely allow access to the 3rd party account by merely verifying a user's SteamID.

 

[Aord]

Honestly, posting here my findings about Steam policies is an attempt to make life easier for original SAC users to cross to Steam and vice versa. I stay on topic while posting informed messages. You wishing me godspeed is trying to be toxic or what? I love how the least informed are the most vocal about it.
To @Ivar Hill - is there a practice setting pledges or something to that effect to have developers at least review the Steam to SAC account linking based on current Steam documentation and policies? I am perfectly willing to chip in and donate to the cause (with no obligations on your side) because it will make life easier for Steam users and allow some players to expand the array of devices they play on. I understand you have the whole complex product on your hands and not a whole lot of time, so it's only fair your attention should be given to things beneficial for the game.
Peace

 

[Majenta]

Before mentioning contracts you'd better read the one you are referring to. Check your facts first.
Valve/Steam directly says app developers could link 3rd party accounts to Steam ID.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features/auth

This is linking a non steam game to steam, which has already been explained (starting with post 55) is already possible. It is NOT making a non steam account a steam account. All it does is allow you to play the original game and still access the "steam community."

I'm sorry, but I still don't see how adding a non steam account to steam increases the number of devices a player can play the game on. If you can install steam on a PC, you could install the SAC anyway. I know you said that you are able to use steam more easily on your device, but that is an entirely different discussion to do with the technicalities of playing a PC (windows) game on a Linux platform. I suspect you would have more success asking for help or advice on how best to play the game using wine, Linux etc than constantly stating that something can be done when numerous other posters, including on of the Devs has clearly stated that the problem is contractual not technical.

 

[Aord]

@Majenta Thanks for your constructive answer. The only thing I would like to point at is that Devs were answering the initial question of this thread as contractually impossible to solve, that is, to authenticate with Steam account on standalone client, Dev has answered it in #32 clearly. I do not doubt it at all, this is how Steam works.
But what I propose is fully supported by Valve/Steam and I provided the link supporting this point of view. It is fully possible to link 3rd party accounts to Steam account to allow for uniform experience on Steam and non-Steam clients alike (that's what we call cross-platform). All I ask is for Dev to check this information and evaluate the new possibilities it grants. I am willing to donate money to the cause without any obligation or deadline from the dev team. I am a programmer myself and I know a thing or two how cross-device authorization works. There is no reason to bring it up to Steam or go to their website and ask for help: they already provided the framework to application developers to achieve this. This is the only reason I ask here and not on Steam.

 

[Aord]

Separately addressing this question:

I'm sorry, but I still don't see how adding a non steam account to steam increases the number of devices a player can play the game on.

Steam is very popular platform now. In fact, any Steam-published game gains much more attention than advertising independently (unless you command high budget). Players begin to try out this game, attracted with positive reviews etc. Some of them quickly become paying customers, purchasing starter packs, investing time and love into their characters etc.
Then they suddenly discover this game is playable on their mobile devices too! Wow, that's great, let's try it out! Full-fledged MMORPG in your pocket is nothing short of an amazing experience (this is the future of gaming, trust me).
Okay, so they hop to their mobile device only to discover there is no way accessing their characters, purchases etc. At all. Have they become Steam hostages without even realizing it? Oops, sorry, you should have started with the standalone client from the beginning, not with Steam, how stupid of you.
Is this a good customer experience? Far from it. Does it make Steam look more convincing as a gaming platform for these customers? Nope.
On the other side, I made all my purchases on Mobile client. Will I make any purchases on Steam as well to begin anew? Definitely not.
Can it be changed? Definitely yes, Steam has provided special mechanism to address this, it's valid and fully legal, coming from Steam itself.

Before you repeat Devs already stated it's not possible, I'll quote for emphasis:

Anyway, to sum things up - currently moving accounts away from Steam, or using Steam to log in on mobile, is not possible

Neither of these methods is required to achieve seamless cross-platform play between Steam and any other device out there.

 

[Majenta]

Separately addressing this question:

Just imagine this scenario: Steam is very popular platform now. In fact, any Steam-published game gains much more attention than trying to advertise independently (unless you command high budget). Players begin to try out this game, attracted with positive reviews etc. Some of them quickly become paying customers, purchasing starter packs, investing time and love into their characters etc.
Then they suddenly discover this game is playable on their mobile devices too! Wow, that's great, let's try it out! Full-fledged MMORPG in your pocket is nothing short of an amazing experience (this is the future of gaming, trust me).
Okay, so they hop to their mobile device only to discover there is no way accessing their characters, purchases etc. At all. Have they become Steam hostages without even realizing it? Oops, sorry, you should have started with the standalone client from the beginning, not with Steam, how stupid of you.
Is this a good customer experience? Far from it. Does it make Steam look more convincing as a gaming platform for these customers? Nope.
On the other side, I made all my purchases on Mobile client. Will I make any purchases on Steam as well to begin anew? Definitely not.
Can it be changed? Definitely yes, Steam has provided special mechanism to address this, it's valid and fully legal, coming from Steam itself.

I still think there is a miscommunication here. Unless I am completely misunderstanding the situation, the links you have provided on how to "link" 3rd party systems to Steam do not do what you are suggesting. It allows you to link a 3rd party game into Steam, yes, but it does not allow you to play a steam game without steam, hence it does not allow steam players to play eg V and H on mobile.

Contractually, Steam are perfectly happy to add games into their system, but they do not allow steam players to play outside their system.

In short, Steam allow me to link my mobile account into steam, but it is still a separate account from my steam account. Steam does not allow me to use my steam account on mobile.

 

[Aord]

No, this Steam documentation excerpt addresses linking 3rd party accounts (not games) to Steam ID. Account is the way for application to know who is trying to gain access. If you link your custom (3rd party) account to Steam ID you always can identify any person no matter which platform they use to log on.
You use 3rd party account on standalone or Mobile client (no Steam ID is needed).
You use Steam ID on Steam client.
It works both ways if there's a link between those accounts AND this link is kept in application database (on game server in this case). Tada!

P.S. Very important: 3rd party account here means you and me. The contract is between Valve and V&H developers, but I use my email and password to login into Mobile client (this is my account and it's referred as 3rd party in documentation because it does not belong to any of the two entities included in the contract). Does it make sense?

P.P.S. I'm sorry I subjected you to several walls of text already, all I can say in my defense is that I enjoy this game so much. I can answer further questions if you have any but now it's really up to the dev team to decide if they want to pursue seamless cross-platform customer experience.

 

[IrishElf]

I'm re-posting Ivar's earlier reply; which is your official answer.

Let me clarify this topic a bit.

There are two reasons you currently cannot play on mobile with a Steam account.

• One is related to our business agreement with Steam which would have to allow for Steam accounts to log into the mobile clients. The reason Steam/Valve would want to disallow this is that since the mobile versions of the game are distributed through the App Store and Play Store (which are technically competitors to Steam), they would miss out on any revenue made. This is a reasonable concern on their end, but since they also might benefit from players sticking around for longer, it's not written in stone and it's something we might be able to adress in the future.
• The second reason is technical - the game would need a method to validate using a Steam account rather than the game accounts we store on our end. Assuming the first point is resolved, we would have to take some time integrating this.

On a side note, the Steam mobile app has nothing to do with whether you can use Steam to log into mobile games or not. What matters is being able to log in through a Steam account, which is done entirely on the end of whichever game needs to support it.

Also, the Steam Link is indeed simply a tool to stream games from a computer to a second display (which can be either a large monitor or a mobile device) - it is similar to a Chromecast or similar devices. I use one myself and it's super useful, but it would not let you actually play the mobile version of V&H on a phone or tablet, unfortunately - it's not what it's designed to do.

Anyway, to sum things up - currently moving accounts away from Steam, or using Steam to log in on mobile, is not possible. However, it is something we might be able to change in the future - and naturally, if we do we'll make sure everyone gets informed!

As much as you might not like the business arrangement/contractual agreement Mad Otter/V&H has with Steam, it seems that until and unless Steam makes mobile access like the Apple APP Store and Google Play Store, there will not be access through Steam for V&H. As Ivar stated, Steam is a direct competitor to the APP Store and Play Store, so they would not like this being circumvented.

I did mention earlier that it would probably be better taking your argument directly to Steam since it is they who decide who gets access to their platform.

 

[Aord]

"There are two reasons you currently cannot play on mobile with a Steam account."

I do not ask for playing on mobile with a Steam account.
Oh yeah, another big title that supports true cross-platform play is Warspear Online, you can do exactly what Steam recommends to link your 3rd party account to Steam ID and it just works.

Anyway, thanks for another copy-paste reply, guess it's time I bow out.

 

[Vajean]

@Ivar Hill
Not sure how they worked it out, but I know other games that use Steam login can be linked with email and passwords accounts, an example would be ESO, which I personally linked.

(https://help.elderscrollsonline.com...r-scrolls-online-account-to-my-steam-account?)

So there are solutions, question is if there is willingness.

As an argument to Steam and their policy, it might actually cost them users and money it the future. As an example I have seen the game and installed it today, I really liked it and played to level 10, but made no purchase yet, planning to buy the subscription the following days. But, when decided to go to sleep and before that install the game on my phone to have it ready for tomorrow at work (so I can tend the farm quickly and maybe the daily login) I found out it isn't possible.
And as a result, I will quit playing on the Steam account, create an account directly with you guys and start making purchases through app store or whatever other ways are possible on your PC app, leaving Steam out.

Why I mentioned willingness it that from your position as a developer you don't mind if I decide to reinstall the window client and create an account. You still got the exposure through Steam and now have me as a customer. And in my case a level ten character is not much of an effort, especially that I didn't spend any real money yet. But for all the others that spent days/months and maybe tens or hundreds of dollars I don't think it fair, and I don't think it bothers you much.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Argus]

Just out of curiosity why villagers and heroes launched in steam without making it cross platform and somehow linked to the steam? Is the decision to make cross platform was taken after steam launch?

 

[Ekimie]

Just out of curiosity why villagers and heroes launched in steam without making it cross platform and somehow linked to the steam? Is the decision to make cross platform was taken after steam launch?

It has been on Steam years before cross platform was introduced