Xantia

Arch Wizard
Characters
Xantia
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Last edited
Feel free to criticize me for this opinion. I can take it. Can you?
No, I can't. It really stresses me out to debate/argue with people. I don't want to argue, I just want to share my honest feedback with the Devs and maybe help improve the game. If I feel like the forum is hostile... I'll stop posting and take a break. If I feel like the issues being discussed are too important to ignore, I'll come back and try again. 🫣

IMHO, the forum seems pretty quiet... either players are happy with the "State of Balance and Mana" changes... or they're too frustrated/tired/stressed to continue to advocate for change. Or perhaps they're just too busy with Raids and the EZ? πŸ€”

Only the Devs know for sure, they have the player activity and retention numbers. πŸ‘¨β€πŸ«πŸ‘©β€πŸ«πŸ§‘β€πŸ«

Do I think the above Mod was being rude? No. She's one of the best Mods in the forum. She's helpful and always tries to keep things civil. πŸ™‚

But these are heated topics and misunderstandings happen easily. 😬

IMHO, we should treat each other with courtesy and make the forum a place, where players are comfortable sharing their feedback with the Devs. πŸ™‚πŸ»πŸ™‚
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Flash forward toward the middle to end of sugar sweet event, it was devastating, I could no longer tank bosses , nor adequately heal my friends.

I don't get it. Holy got more healing power and cheaper, didn't it? (Heal crits more and costs less mana. Cure did get less powerful and more expensive as well, but the additional Heal crits are really big) Am I missing something?
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
  • To make every class valuable in groups, each class would have 1 self-buff, that will become a group buff, during group content. Maybe...
    • Warriors increase Health and Vitality.​
    • Shaman increase Physical Defense and Mastery.​
    • Hunters increase Haste and Expertise.​
    • Wizards increase Magic Defense and Crit Chance.​
    • Priests not only heal, they increase Mana and Will.​
I like this idea. I really like the idea of wanting to have all types for maximum buff-age.
True balance is really hard when DPS is the main thing anyone is measuring. But, if your raid is benefitted by diversity of classes, then even if Ice Wiz is behind in DPS, they may have a buff/debuff nobody else has that still makes at least the first ice Wiz you add worth it. (Like Brittling Chill used to do - debuffed resistance.)
 
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IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Agreed, but can we level-up our Villager skills at the same rate as our Combat skills? If not, then we can't craft our own gear and consumables, when we need them. 😬

And how can we expect new players to know how to make the best use of buffs... or even afford them? They can't grow their own Verda, they need to level-up cooking to make Triads. They don't have much gold to buy items from others... low-level nodes drop less valuable gems... πŸ€·β€β™€οΈ

Motes are a luxury and many players dislike crafting/refining without them. The number of items required to master a recipe... the cost of Salvage kits... crafting gold costs... ALL of this contributes to players being unable to afford crafting their own level-appropriate gear and consumables... UNLESS... they buy and resell Crown items. πŸͺ™πŸͺ™πŸͺ™

Which is fine, I know the Otters need the game to be profitable. πŸ™‚

However, I wonder if it's more profitable for players to hurry through the game and skip most crafting, because it's too expensive... OR... if it would be more profitable, to make gathering/crafting less expensive and more rewarding... so players will be able to level-up their Villager skills, along with their Combat... and want to buy Vaults to store crafted gear for rebirth... buy Bags to craft 50-100 items at once... buy Motes to speed crafting/refining... create alts for crafting Specs... etc. πŸ˜ƒπŸ‘

I feel like choosing a class, should be about estetics and play style. What looks good to you? Do you want to be dps, tank or heals? Do you enjoy melee or ranged or a bit of both? πŸ€·β€β™€οΈ

I feel like the term "balanced", should mean that all classes have equal, basic abilities and whether or not we're OP, should depend on how we build our toon. Do we build a glass-cannon or a tank? Do we build for solo or group play? Do we focus on one Mastery or Hybrid? Do we invest in mana/health or use pots? πŸ€“

On US3, I've run many Raids, 95s, Ladders, etc... with Hunters or Shaman as very successful tanks. I never once thought they were playing or building their toons incorrectly. I simply thought they'd done an excellent job, building very strong characters. πŸ’ͺ 🀩

However, I know we need some class balancing... because some subclasses are more popular than others... and some are hardly ever played... *cough* IceWiz *cough* πŸ₯Ά

So, if I were "balancing" classes, I'd do it like this:
  • Melee classes would have more base Health, Vitality and Physical defense.
  • Ranged classes would have more base Mana, Will and Magic defense.
  • Priests (or any class that's both melee and ranged) would have balanced base stats.
  • All classes would have 5 single target and 5 aoe feats, forcing them to choose only 7 for their weapon (which will help create a variety of builds).
  • All crafted weapons would start with 3 damage feats (to help players survive at low-levels), buff feats (such as Nature's Veil) won't be added until the 30s - 40s (keep it simple, while players are learning).
  • All classes would have at least 1 slow and 1 stun.
  • All classes would have a speed boost and self-heals, early in their Talent trees.
  • All classes would have a mana sustain, mid-way in their Talent trees.
  • To make every class valuable in groups, each class would have 1 self-buff, that will become a group buff, during group content. Maybe...
    • Warriors increase Health and Vitality.​
    • Shaman increase Physical Defense and Mastery.​
    • Hunters increase Haste and Expertise.​
    • Wizards increase Magic Defense and Crit Chance.​
    • Priests not only heal, they increase Mana and Will.​
  • Each class will decide which feats to use and which skills to focus on, allowing them to build and play their characters, the way they prefer.
I know this is an oversimplification of a complex process, but I thought it was the best way to convey my thoughts on class balancing. πŸ™‚

I also feel like more emphasis should be placed on gear-crafting. Whatever is making players skip gear-crafting and use dropped gear, needs to be improved. I believe it's the slow and costly crafting process. I think the Otters need to ask themselves...
  • Is it more profitable to have players skip gear-crafting and hurry to end-game, before they focus on building strong toons... or would it be more profitable to have players taking the time to gather and craft enough, to master recipes, build strong characters and participate in all content, as they slowly level-up?
  • And can we really say VH is NOT pay-to-win... when only Crown sellers can afford to buy extra Gathering Supplies and/or raw mats, to level-up their Villager skills and craft level-appropriate gear?
Thanks for reading. πŸ™‡β€β™€οΈ
This is exactly what the devs were/are asking for in feedback. Thank you! Your time and efforts are appreciated!!!
 
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Xantia

Arch Wizard
Characters
Xantia
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
This is exactly what the devs were/are asking for in feedback. Thank you! Your time and efforts are appreciated!!!
Thank you so much Irish... and I'm sorry if I misunderstood the intent of your comments about Wizards being OP. The game has changed a LOT over the years and I'm only familiar with some of it. 😊🍻😊
 

Lamorack

Great Adventurer
Platform
  1. iOS
Last edited
With the rise in popularity of short-form social media like Discord where topics come and go in the blink of an eye, it seems that some of us have forgotten how to engage in actual conversations and debates that long-form social media like forums offer.

Any member of this forum is entitled to express an opinion. They are also entitled to disagree with an opinion presented by another. The only people that "can't" express an opinion here are those that fail to do so in a civil manner that is in keeping with the ToS of the forum. Disagreeing with you is not an attack. It's a disagreement. There have been times when I have posted unpopular opinions or ideas and have received far more criticism than praise. I don't feel attacked. I don't feel bullied. I don't feel that I'm being driven from the forum. I'm being challenged. I've said an unpopular thing, as I'm probably doing now, and am ready and willing to defend that opinion.

Perhaps if people would spend more time defending and arguing the merits of their position than playing the victim card and finding hostility where none was intended, we could have some lively debates. Sadly, it seems we become less capable of that with every passing day.
Feel free to criticize me for this opinion. I can take it. Can you?
If you are referring to me, I certainly don’t feel victimized or really care about such things.

As to intended or not, read the language in its face is my motto and any subsequent disclaimer in light of how it stands up against that. There is an edit option if a sentiment hasn’t reflected intent in first draft.

Arguing the merits requires agreement on the nature of the key imperative. Arguing at the micro level when I believe and have stated that the problem is very much at the macro level would be futile. A cynic might see that demand as either a failure to comprehend what I’m saying or a means to avoid addressing it. Irony is rich.

Irony again rears its head in a post arguing nothing but merely excusing something else without any support for doing so. Indeed it’s really just criticism of voicing an opinion against comments made to another poster here.

it’s sad to have to spell this out, especially when the written record speaks for itself. It’s also obviously pointless in terms of life or gameplay. Nice that you stand up for old friends. Not perhaps as good for the game or forum credibility. I will leave you to it.
 
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IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Thank you so much Irish... and I'm sorry if I misunderstood the intent of your comments about Wizards being OP. The game has changed a LOT over the years and I'm only familiar with some of it. 😊🍻😊
I'm sorry if you misunderstood as well. It was only my intent to explain to an old friend how and what happened to his wizard. And his missing a good number of updates really did matter with him using his old build from way back then. He was used to being able to run a zone, killing the bounties and not lose any hp at all. He never died either. So in reality 4-5 years ago his wizard was OP.

Edit to add, this post speaks to what I had told Red and was trying to add to what I told him. https://villagersandheroes.com/forums/threads/fire-wizard-guide.3320/#post-95274
 
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Littlenymph

Squirrel
Characters
Layla Littlenymph
Platform
  1. PC
  2. Steam
No, I can't. It really stresses me out to debate/argue with people. I don't want to argue, I just want to share my honest feedback with the Devs and maybe help improve the game. If I feel like the forum is hostile... I'll stop posting and take a break. If I feel like the issues being discussed are too important to ignore, I'll come back and try again. 🫣

IMHO, the forum seems pretty quiet... either players are happy with the "State of Balance and Mana" changes... or they're too frustrated/tired/stressed to continue to advocate for change. Or perhaps they're just too busy with Raids and the EZ? πŸ€”

Only the Devs know for sure, they have the player activity and retention numbers. πŸ‘¨β€πŸ«πŸ‘©β€πŸ«πŸ§‘β€πŸ«

Do I think the above Mod was being rude? No. She's one of the best Mods in the forum. She's helpful and always tries to keep things civil. πŸ™‚

But these are heated topics and misunderstandings happen easily. 😬

IMHO, we should treat each other with courtesy and make the forum a place, where players are comfortable sharing their feedback with the Devs. πŸ™‚πŸ»πŸ™‚
The very nature of what a forum is encourages debate. It is when that debate goes awry and devolves into a flame war that it all falls to ashes. That said, I find that I often agree with your posts and always look forward to seeing your input. The last sentence in your post is particularly well said and it's a point on which I completely agree with you.

"IMHO, we should treat each other with courtesy and make the forum a place, where players are comfortable sharing their feedback with the Devs."

I don't mean to be off-topic by bringing this up. It's just that the OP made specific mention of the original thread being shut down and I disagree with the opinion of why that thread was closed. It's not that the devs didn't want to hear the feedback. It was due to the fact that the thread had devolved into a flame war that was generating more hostility than input. In my opinion, most of the hostility on this forum does not come from dissenting opinions. It comes from people that don't like being disagreed with. I made my original post because I saw this thread beginning to follow the same path that caused the last one to be shut down.

Now, in the interest of getting back on topic...

I don't have that big of an issue with the class balancing... at this point. The so-called "mana build" which many players did not like, was a necessary thing. Mana had been broken in the game for a very long time and it was past time an effort needed to be made to correct it. In so doing, it brought to light some weaknesses and inconsistencies in character builds. The character balancing is a direct result of changing how mana functioned and is still very much a work in progress. It was because it was a work in progress that devs sought player feedback, which is not something that most game producers do. Do I like every aspect of the rebalancing? No. What I do like is being able to give feedback that may help nudge the rebalancing into a direction that is good for the game and acceptable to the majority of users.

Now, if only we could find a way to agree to agree, AND disagree, on what's acceptable... :unsure:
 

Littlenymph

Squirrel
Characters
Layla Littlenymph
Platform
  1. PC
  2. Steam
If you are referring to me, I certainly don’t feel victimized or really care about such things.

As to intended or not, read the language in its face is my motto and any subsequent disclaimer in light of how it stands up against that. There is an edit option if a sentiment hasn’t reflected intent in first draft.

Arguing the merits requires agreement on the nature of the key imperative. Arguing at the micro level when I believe and have stated that the problem is very much at the macro level would be futile. A cynic might see that demand as either a failure to comprehend what I’m saying or a means to avoid addressing it. Irony is rich.

Irony again rears its head in a post arguing nothing but merely excusing something else without any support for doing so. Indeed it’s really just criticism of voicing an opinion against comments made to another poster here.

it’s sad to have to spell this out, especially when the written record speaks for itself. It’s also obviously pointless in terms of life or gameplay. Nice that you stand up for old friends. Not perhaps as good for the game or forum credibility. I will leave you to it.
I'm not taking up for an old friend. I'm stating my own opinion of where the hostility on this forum that seems to annoy so many people generally comes from.

Hostility happens when you can't counter an opinion without belittling the individual and opinion you wish to debate.
Hostility happens when you assign motive and intent to what someone said instead of addressing what they actually stated.
Hostility happens when you find it necessary to call others out and can't seem to make a post without including a personal insult.
Hostility deepens when you instigate these things and then lay the fault for it on the recipient of your actions.

I did not mention any individual in particular but I thank you for submitting an example post that contains all of these elements for everyone to see. As you say, "The written record speaks for itself".
 
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Xantia

Arch Wizard
Characters
Xantia
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
The very nature of what a forum is encourages debate. It is when that debate goes awry and devolves into a flame war that it all falls to ashes. That said, I find that I often agree with your posts and always look forward to seeing your input. The last sentence in your post is particularly well said and it's a point on which I completely agree with you.

"IMHO, we should treat each other with courtesy and make the forum a place, where players are comfortable sharing their feedback with the Devs."

I don't mean to be off-topic by bringing this up. It's just that the OP made specific mention of the original thread being shut down and I disagree with the opinion of why that thread was closed. It's not that the devs didn't want to hear the feedback. It was due to the fact that the thread had devolved into a flame war that was generating more hostility than input. In my opinion, most of the hostility on this forum does not come from dissenting opinions. It comes from people that don't like being disagreed with. I made my original post because I saw this thread beginning to follow the same path that caused the last one to be shut down.

Now, in the interest of getting back on topic...

I don't have that big of an issue with the class balancing... at this point. The so-called "mana build" which many players did not like, was a necessary thing. Mana had been broken in the game for a very long time and it was past time an effort needed to be made to correct it. In so doing, it brought to light some weaknesses and inconsistencies in character builds. The character balancing is a direct result of changing how mana functioned and is still very much a work in progress. It was because it was a work in progress that devs sought player feedback, which is not something that most game producers do. Do I like every aspect of the rebalancing? No. What I do like is being able to give feedback that may help nudge the rebalancing into a direction that is good for the game and acceptable to the majority of users.

Now, if only we could find a way to agree to agree, AND disagree, on what's acceptable... :unsure:
We can, we do and we are... we just need to be polite to each other. I've learned a lot from players in this forum (including you)... been talked into changing my opinion or perspective... had to admit when I was wrong. For the most part, I think we have a great community... we just get a little heated sometimes. πŸ₯΅πŸ˜‰

AND... I definitely agree with your post. πŸ™‚πŸ»πŸ™‚
 

Lamorack

Great Adventurer
Platform
  1. iOS
I'm not taking up for an old friend. I'm stating my own opinion of where the hostility on this forum that seems to annoy so many people generally comes from.

Hostility happens when you can't counter an opinion without belittling the individual and opinion you wish to debate.
Hostility happens when you assign motive and intent to what someone said instead of addressing what they actually stated.
Hostility happens when you find it necessary to call others out and can't seem to make a post without including a personal insult.
Hostility deepens when you instigate these things and then lay the fault for it on the recipient of your actions.

I did not mention any individual in particular but I thank you for submitting an example post that contains all of these elements for everyone to see. As you say, "The written record speaks for itself".
If you find that hostile you have a strange definition of the word. Disappointed, resigned, unimpressed, All of those work.

Not agreeing, holding opposing views and voicing them overtly is not hostility, at least in my world. Indeed it’s probably a prerequisite for any meaningful debate.

I’m happy to let the record stand and similarly stand by the experiences views and impressions I have recorded therein.

They are genuine, they are related to the playing experience. This isn’t, and so it should cease. We seem to agree at least on that.
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
We can, we do and we are... we just need to be polite to each other. I've learned a lot from players in this forum (including you)... been talked into changing my opinion or perspective... had to admit when I was wrong. For the most part, I think we have a great community... we just get a little heated sometimes. πŸ₯΅πŸ˜‰

AND... I definitely agree with your post. πŸ™‚πŸ»πŸ™‚
Being "heated" about a game means there is still passion. There is nothing wrong with talking, giving your opinion or even disagreeing with someone.
It does change the atmosphere when name calling and accusations start. It's that name calling, accusations and bullying that has to be avoided. When a disagreement or a difference of opinion degrades to accusations, name calling, bullying and worse is when threads have to be closed.

Closing a thread is something we try to avoid.
 

Agber

Citizen
Characters
Catweazel, treesplit, Sister Edith, Little Syb, Parabola
Platform
  1. PC
There is one issue which I would like to address in this conversation. I feel that there is a problem with the Fury Warrior.
The cooldown for the three crafted weapon feats is too long. This is particularly the case with low level players, who do not have Elder feats on their weapon.
It can be touch and go sometimes, if those three crafted feats are all you have, and Frenzied Strike as well. It could be around an eight sec. cooldown on Slash, 15 sec. on Whirlwind and 5 sec on Phoenix Strike.
When engaging with larger groups of enemies, especially if a number of ranged enemies are present, the life of the warrior could be in the balance.
It would be better I think to reduce the cooldown on Slash and Whirlwind by 20%.
 
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IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
There is one issue which I would like to address in this conversation. I feel that there is a problem with the Fury Warrior.
The cooldown for the three crafted weapon feats is too long. This is particularly the case with low level players, who do not have Elder feats on their weapon.
It can be touch and go sometimes, if those three crafted feats are all you have, and Frenzied Strike as well. It could be around an eight sec. cooldown on Slash, 15 sec. on Whirlwind and 5 sec on Phoenix Strike.
When engaging with larger groups of enemies, especially if a number of ranged enemies are present, the life of the warrior could be in the balance.
It would be better I think to reduce the cooldown on Slash and Whirlwind by 20%.
That's because fury is the only class that cannot call out a mob or bounty. All other classes are able to single target and even lightning warrior can draw out but fury cannot and mostly gets mobbed.
 
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Renaiss

Reader
Whether or not players think the balance changes were needed seems to depend, to some extent, on how long they've played the game. Long-time players (pre-Starfall) generally seem to feel the changes were necessary, while many "newer" players (post-Starfall) seem to feel they were not necessary. Some newer players further feel that the balance changes were detrimental to solo players and to those who are still leveling up. Based on what I've read, this game started out being more group oriented. Presumably, the classes were balanced for group play back then, which may be why some long-time players feel this "rebalancing" was needed. At some point (after Starfall?), the game became more "solo player friendly", and the classes "evolved" to better suit the needs of solo players. With most of the required content (quests & bounties) being solo-able, and most group content (EZs & raids) being optional, it shouldn't be surprising that many newer players thought the class balancing was mostly fine the way it was.

These differing perspectives seem to be driving some of the disagreements about the balance changes as a whole. Even if we can never agree on the "need" for these changes, I hope we can, at the very least, try to understand the opposing perspective. Thanks for reading! :)
 

Xantia

Arch Wizard
Characters
Xantia
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Whether or not players think the balance changes were needed seems to depend, to some extent, on how long they've played the game. Long-time players (pre-Starfall) generally seem to feel the changes were necessary, while many "newer" players (post-Starfall) seem to feel they were not necessary. Some newer players further feel that the balance changes were detrimental to solo players and to those who are still leveling up. Based on what I've read, this game started out being more group oriented. Presumably, the classes were balanced for group play back then, which may be why some long-time players feel this "rebalancing" was needed. At some point (after Starfall?), the game became more "solo player friendly", and the classes "evolved" to better suit the needs of solo players. With most of the required content (quests & bounties) being solo-able, and most group content (EZs & raids) being optional, it shouldn't be surprising that many newer players thought the class balancing was mostly fine the way it was.

These differing perspectives seem to be driving some of the disagreements about the balance changes as a whole. Even if we can never agree on the "need" for these changes, I hope we can, at the very least, try to understand the opposing perspective. Thanks for reading! :)
Very well said! πŸ‘

I began playing VH on Facebook, when it was called "A Mystical Land". I remember running from aggressive mobs and trying to unlock a telepad, without dying. I also remember running to join open world Elder Battles, like the giant spider that used to spawn in Elk Meadows. I've played off-n-on for years and the mobile version is what finally kept me playing. πŸ€©πŸ‘

As a mobile player, my chat window covers my whole screen. This means I have to stop whatever I'm doing, to talk to others. I can't chat at all, during combat. So, even though I'd like to be more helpful and sociable, it's difficult. 🀐

Which is why I'm glad VH is solo friendly. It's much easier for me to solo Quests and Bounties. I usually only join groups, led by others... then use emojis to communicate. πŸ‘‹πŸ«‘πŸ™ŒπŸ‘

It must be very difficult for the Otters to please our diverse player base. Especially when we have a mix of hard/easy, solo/group content and a variety of devices. πŸ˜΅β€πŸ’«

Which is why I'm always happy to listen to the opinions of others. Each player's experience, play style and perspective, is unique and informative. πŸ™‚πŸ»πŸ™‚
 

Agber

Citizen
Characters
Catweazel, treesplit, Sister Edith, Little Syb, Parabola
Platform
  1. PC
With Dragon Strike equipped, the Fury has a good opportunity to deal very well with enemies speedily. There is a problem though with Frag use and the rate at which you level, while doing the start-up quest. You tend to raise your combat level much more quickly, than the combat zones you gain access to. This is sharper if you have access to pies, and Ardent Society.
What happens I think, is that between level 10 and 26 a wide gap develops between your combat level and the zones which you have access to, you may be level 15 when you complete the Malicious Miscreant quest. When you pick up some side-quests, and Lady Phillipa's quest you could be L17. So you have possibly missed out on redeeming the Frags at crafted gear level. And tend to keep them for RB, otherwise, you need more sockets to equip them. This is applied to the dropped feats as well (possibly to an even greater extent) as Dragon Strike.
And the up-shot of it all, is that the Fury warrior can run around most of the time with only the crafted weapon feats and Frenzied Strike, which you really need under those conditions.
 

Aaliagh

Wizard
Attached is a dmg chart of regular ladder in Twilight. #2 dmg is a lvl 80 fire wiz. #3 is me, a lvl 95 elder lvl 35 ice wiz. How is this balance? I mean, I understand the devs want the fire wiz to be real dmg and ice wiz to be who knows what, however I feel that is Way Too Drastic of a difference in dmg.
 

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IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Attached is a dmg chart of regular ladder in Twilight. #2 dmg is a lvl 80 fire wiz. #3 is me, a lvl 95 elder lvl 35 ice wiz. How is this balance? I mean, I understand the devs want the fire wiz to be real dmg and ice wiz to be who knows what, however I feel that is Way Too Drastic of a difference in dmg.
Unless each of these characters are looked at for how they are built, you cannot depend on the stats on the combat charts. I don't think those charts were ever meant to be used for defending arguments both for or against nerfing a class, but were meant to give you insight into your own toon and how your build is doing. IMHO they are why some people are unhappy with the changes. What you see using charts isn't exactly what's real.

There are far too many variables in how the toons were built; what buff's they use, what raid advantages do they have, what their gear has, how improved is it, what sort of boosters they use. Are they using mana potions to continually use the huge feats? Are they using gear to refresh feats faster?

I know when I ran the elders with groups I could easily change where my fury warrior stood in the charts by either doing low feats and auto feats or aggressively hitting each feat as it refreshed. For instance, when I ran through my feats and never let up, using mana pots to keep using the feats I could literally out DPS a lightning warrior, shadow priests, hunters and wizards. But it was not sustainable and was expensive and exhausting.
 
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