KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
This is a pretty old thread (from February of this year), so not entirely sure how / why it was revived.

I still feel the same way on this topic as I did when starting it though. Currently, Elders are not the raids they were advertised to be. It's just high level players 2-shotting them for low level players. Low levels learn nothing about working with others, party mechanics or how to build their character effectively to tackle a difficult challenge. All they learn is that they can use world chat to call in the gods and slay any powerful beast for them.

Perhaps instead of removing Elders from the quest-line, how about the addition of new Elder Dungeons, similar to the 95 Elders? A scaled zone with interesting rewards, plenty of re-playability, and you get to fight your favorite bosses without ever outgrowing them. What's the point of designing Elders with complex scripts if they are just going to be steamrolled by a level 95? What's the point of making 'Raids' that people outgrow within a single kill and do not even require assembling an actual team for?

This game is rich with existing content that could be refactored into scaled, replayable areas.

I recently made an Elder Boss guide and I realized, when writing the 'strategies' section, that it was completely useless. Because in reality, they require no strategy. They just require a single high level player with 15 seconds of spare time.
 
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Joleen

BRA Member
Royal Guardian
Characters
Kavita, Katona, Chephirah
Platform
Android, PC
When I go to a call for elders I give them the option of being support (I tank it while they kill it) or just going in god-style and killing it. MOST opt for me to tank while they kill. I haven't been able to do that much of late because of physical limitations (happens every winter) but, I guess my point is that from my own experience only a few want the 'god-approach', and the ones that DO, never play for long.

I personally think scaling is good for dungeons and ez's, it 'could' have a place in elders, but scaling has its' limits as we've seen in EZ's multiple times as the new ones die over and over - some from not knowing the mechanics of each boss, and some because scaling cannot account for gear and a host of other nuances that get added (to our build) over time.

I agree that the game IS rich with existing content that could be refashioned. Perhaps my biggest concern is that in games I've played in the past there was 'too much' scaled content which takes away the rewards for working hard and getting the best build you can. I know you're saying the rewards will be 'finishing' rewards, but scaled areas can also wear you down, get extremely boring and cause burnout.
 
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KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
When I go to a call for elders I give them the option of being support (I tank it while they kill it) or just going in god-style and killing it. MOST opt for me to tank while they kill. I haven't been able to do that much of late because of physical limitations (happens every winter) but, I guess my point is that from my own experience only a few want the 'god-approach', and the ones that DO, never play for long.
This is my point exactly though. Players do want the experience of being able to work with a team similar to their power level in order to overcome a boss. The issue stems from the fact that Elders are required to progress through the story, and it is difficult to find players of similar level in order to defeat them. At the end of the day, these folks just want to continue their quest-line, so they call in for help and the result is a high level basically doing it for them. It's great that you provide them the options you do, but not many players do that, and even so, it's still pretty much playing god. They are in no danger, and they still learn nothing about working with others effectively.

I personally think scaling is good for dungeons and ez's, it 'could' have a place in elders, but scaling has its' limits as we've seen in EZ's multiple times as the new ones die over and over - some from not knowing the mechanics of each boss, and some because scaling cannot account for gear and a host of other nuances that get added (to our build) over time.
Scaling is more so for established players, not new players. New players can focus on their main story, side quests, and learning the game. It's the experienced players who you'll generally see participate in scaled content. This is so friends of any level can play together and earn useful rewards. Scaled content is great for the longevity of any game.

I agree that the game IS rich with existing content that could be refashioned. Perhaps my biggest concern is that in games I've played in the past there was 'too much' scaled content which takes away the rewards for working hard and getting the best build you can. I know you're saying the rewards will be 'finishing' rewards, but scaled areas can also wear you down, get extremely boring and cause burnout.
I would heavily disagree with this. On US3 at least, I've been running Red Cloister pretty much every day with a team of up to 18 sometimes, and we have yet to become bored of it. We even did a HoS yesterday and had a group near 20 in size. These areas have been around for 6 to 12 months and people are still doing them. Having more scaled content introduces greater variety and allows the Developers to create long-lasting content. I haven't run the 95 Elders yet, but I hear people run them almost daily, and have a blast.

Compare this to the current iteration of Elders. When players outgrow these Elder 'Raids' by 5 or more levels, there is no reason for them to return other than to kill them for low levels. Why would I, as a level 91, kill Headmaster Rotburga, a level 40 Elder Raid? I get no useful rewards or experience, and yet he is still one of my favorite boss battles (as simple as he is). I'd love for the opportunity to fight Lord Pyrrus as a scaled and powerful foe again. To test my mettle against Orog Doomslayer and his legion of minions. To go up against Undadar when he was at his prime.

Blackfury Gorge is another example of how scaled content can bring a community together. I miss running there with low levels and earning charter tokens together. Blasting through waves of gargoyle squads...
 
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Agber

Citizen
Characters
Agamemnon,coober,catweazel, +1
Platform
PC
In my experience, the Dungeons are treated by some as their exclusive domain. Even as scaled zones. I went with my new Shaman to participate in a dungeon run, that toon was around level 40, at the time. Two players began whispering me that they only ran with high level players, that is Level 90 plus.
The irony was that I encountered one of those toons in the Oasis of Anuk Amon, a scaled zone, and my Shaman out- performed him on all counts.
 

Black_Cvlt

Arch Wizard
Characters
Danger Zone, Black Cvlt, Coup de Grace, Crafty Hands
Platform
Android, PC
New players can focus on their main story, side quests, and learning the game
This is so friends of any level can play together and earn useful rewards
So "play together" or "focus on their main story"?
As an "established player" I like to see my progress clearly without any form of scaling. And I don't want to see scaled noobs ruining the runs. Friend, brother, whatever. If you want to downgrade 95's char for low level elder - why would I lose my power and hours of leveling? No, thanks.
 

Ekimie

Hunter
Royal Guardian
Platform
Steam
So "play together" or "focus on their main story"?
As an "established player" I like to see my progress clearly without any form of scaling. And I don't want to see scaled noobs ruining the runs. Friend, brother, whatever. If you want to downgrade 95's char for low level elder - why would I lose my power and hours of leveling? No, thanks.
There is a smooth line between new player focussing on learning the game and play together with low level. You learned the game before you reach lvl 95 you know. A great many people are out of the absolute starter area, found a guild, made friends. And they can still be only lvl 20
 
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KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
In my experience, the Dungeons are treated by some as their exclusive domain. Even as scaled zones. I went with my new Shaman to participate in a dungeon run, that toon was around level 40, at the time. Two players began whispering me that they only ran with high level players, that is Level 90 plus.
The irony was that I encountered one of those toons in the Oasis of Anuk Amon, a scaled zone, and my Shaman out- performed him on all counts.
I am sorry to hear that. I think what we need is content with a variety of difficulty levels. For example:
  • Main Story Content: Solo'able by everyone
  • Scaled Zones: Like blackfury gorge, can be done solo or with groups
  • Elder Dungeons: Requires a team, but nothing super organized
  • Heroic Dungeons: Requires an organized team
So "play together" or "focus on their main story"?
Both? It's not mutually exclusive.

As an "established player" I like to see my progress clearly without any form of scaling.
That's what regular content is for. Zones that you outgrow, like Traven, Pyrron, Copse etc. over time.

And I don't want to see scaled noobs ruining the runs. Friend, brother, whatever. If you want to downgrade 95's char for low level elder - why would I lose my power and hours of leveling? No, thanks.
Having separate Elder Dungeons wouldn't be downgrading anyone. It's about providing additional content through the use of bosses and mechanics which already exist. It gives players more to do for an extended period of time. Scaled areas similar to event zones bring together all levels. Some can be easygoing / casual (Event zones), some can be hardcore (Dungeons) and some can be in-between. There could be interesting rewards such as cosmetics (mounts like the 95 Elders) or even new stats or recipes.

Regarding your statement about "noobs", I just find that sad honestly. New players are the life of the game. Bring them along and teach them the mechanics, they're usually quite eager to learn.
 
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Agber

Citizen
Characters
Agamemnon,coober,catweazel, +1
Platform
PC
I am sorry to hear that. I think what we need is content with a variety of difficulty levels. For example:
The content with a variety of difficulty has been obliterated by the introduction of scaled zones, sorry to say.
The only difficulty in these zones, is if a player attempts them with inadequate gear, buffs and boosts, i.e the items you use being too far below your actual combat level. This is noticeable very clearly, particularly with low level toons, who may surpass several levels, within several dungeon runs. What you notice is that your new combat level is taken into consideration in each run, but your items have not kept to the same pace.
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
The content with a variety of difficulty has been obliterated by the introduction of scaled zones, sorry to say.
The only difficulty in these zones, is if a player attempts them with inadequate gear, buffs and boosts, i.e the items you use being too far below your actual combat level. This is noticeable very clearly, particularly with low level toons, who may surpass several levels, within several dungeon runs. What you notice is that your new combat level is taken into consideration in each run, but your items have not kept to the same pace.
Hmm I do not agree with you regarding this. I feel that there is a very clear distinction between Event Zone difficulty, and Dungeon difficulty for example. Perhaps there could be modifiers added for hardcore players which will make it even tougher for them. Status effects, zone-wide random debuffs and increased enemy health / damage.

I do feel that difficulty should come from mechanics more so than gear. Gear enables players to participate, but should not be the main quantifier for difficulty. That is the role that mechanics should take.
 

Agber

Citizen
Characters
Agamemnon,coober,catweazel, +1
Platform
PC
Hmm I do not agree with you regarding this. I feel that there is a very clear distinction between Event Zone difficulty, and Dungeon difficulty for example. Perhaps there could be modifiers added for hardcore players which will make it even tougher for them. Status effects, zone-wide random debuffs and increased enemy health / damage.
Well, you can disagree all you like. However it is incumbent upon you to actually specify what is the clear distinction between the difficulty of Event Zones and Heroic Zones, which you do not. What exactly is a Hardcore player ? And you conclude by saying that the scale should be changed.
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Well, you can disagree all you like. However it is incumbent upon you to actually specify what is the clear distinction between the difficulty of Event Zones and Heroic Zones, which you do not. What exactly is a Hardcore player ? And you conclude by saying that the scale should be changed.
Sorry, but I genuinely do not understand the point you are trying to make. The disparity in difficulty between event zone and dungeon difficulty seems fairly apparent to me. It has little to do with how scaling tech works in general, and much more to do with how the enemies and bosses are designed.
 

marty57

Citizen
Well then how about an item from the shop that lets you solo elders, with conditions, elder must be within 3 lvls of your current lvl, player can not be in a party to use item. That way those who want to role play elders can, and those that dont can pay the shop , lets say $10 for the elder killing item. Ideally Item would be account bound not soul bound when used.
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Well then how about an item from the shop that lets you solo elders, with conditions, elder must be within 3 lvls of your current lvl, player can not be in a party to use item. That way those who want to role play elders can, and those that dont can pay the shop , lets say $10 for the elder killing item. Ideally Item would be account bound not soul bound when used.
Ah I think that I may not have made my recent posts on the topic too clear. My stance has changed ever so slightly since I made the thread back in Feb. I say it's fine if we leave the current Elders as they are right now. Players can either level up and solo them or call for backup. That's fine, because removing them or changing them would require a lot of work. So if you'd like to continue solo'ing Elders, that works and you wouldn't need to pay.

What I would like to see are optional Elder Dungeons, similar to the 95 Elders. Where players could fight against challenging, scaled versions of Elders for new and interesting rewards.
 

Allison Wonderland

Priestess
Royal Guardian
Platform
PC
The way the elders are now you basically kill for the gear and move on. The EZ are very popular with quite a few who enjoy this type play. It would be interesting to have a choice for elder play. If you wanted to solo you have that option but if you like to run in parties having the option of scaled elders with the interesting rewards would give the opportunity for players at lower levels to meet different level players.

Just a little sidetrack here.. the option of soloing dungeons might be a choice some would like. Scaling and having solo dungeon would take care of those who felt the dungeon was too easy and wanted a challenge.
 
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