SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
But personally I'd like to see hybrids stay, and see more support, as they allow for a lot more variety in builds than just sticking to your subclass.

Yeah, hybrids are really strong and there's one big mechanic that helps them all right now in a strange way: the magnified crafted runes.

Crafted ability runes go up 4 levels higher than you can get dropped. The abilities on the crafted weapon for each subclass get a bonus for this reason and those abilities are nearly universally then worth taking on the other subclass, just because of the large boost.

Standard level damage for lvl 95 is 5806, for lvl 99 it's 7662, a 32% increase.

Add in to that the idea that each subclass has 2-3 "main" damage abilities that have a better "DPS" profile than the other feats which have longer CDs and are more utility/CC/function specific, taking the crafted "main" damage ability from your alternate subclass (or two) becomes a huge benefit (especially since you're just displacing a utility/CC ability and top bosses can't be CC-ed!).

But, all games end up with "no brainer" things like this. It's impossible to balance a game such that there isn't some thing that is "the best". So, maybe it's ok that there is no reason not to take phoenix strike on light warriors or shadow bolt on holy priests. The "solution" to this might make hybridizing very hard and/or other problems. I once brainstormed that perhaps you could have 3 or 4 "big" rune slots and 3 or 4 "little" rune slots. Primary spells with low-ish CD like heal, smite, holy bolt, shadow orbs, gloom, and shadow bolt would have to go in "big" slots, and then longer cooldown/utility spells like divine hammer, darkfrost, judgement, etc could go in the "little" rune slots. Then, presumably to take advantage of talent-driven benefits, you'd need to be pickier with the subclass in the big slots, while still allowing some variation.
 

Drakz

Legendary Hero
Characters
Drakz, Zelior, Glacier, Scab, Drakzy, Ground Pounder.
Platform
  1. PC
Last edited
i dont understand why people say hybrids are soo strong i mean you gonna be weak in one or the other subclass. Priest for example you have shadow and Holy with Balance as a neutral ground. if you put points in holy and shadow then obviously your gonna have points in holy affinity but once you begin putting points in shadow now your faced with the issue of putting points in both affinities in order to excel at both sub classes involved in your build or just put points in one of the affinities and let the other lag behind. Sure you could do both affinities but then you would suffer in other talents. In order to be the strongest in any subclass you must stick to one or the other. A pure holy will always out heal a hybrid and a pure shadow should always out dps a hybrid. Now people sometimes are calling a Holy with a few points in balance a hybrid but in all actuality its not. Balance is a neutral ground thats why you dont see it having a balance affinity and you dont see a balance class its either shadow or holy. So shadow+balance or Holy+balance are both still pure till you mix shadow in with holy or vise verse. The only way you could spend all your points if you have any rb at all is to place points in a balance or by going hybrid. so basically in order to achieve the most from any one class is to pick one and stick with it. Now i am not at all trying to discourage anyone from playing a hybrid and not saying they cant be strong please just play what ever build you want as long as you enjoy it .
 

Grz

Reader
Platform
  1. Android
well to be honest a lvl 95 without good gear especially a 95 thats been there for any time has no real reason not to have good gear you had 95 lvls to figure out how to get good gear. there are several ways to achieve this by crafting, looting, auction house, or even buying from others on trade channel. Now as far as technique goes there no real excuse for that either once again 95 lvls to figure out your class and 95 lvls isn't done over night even a casual plays enough that they should know how to play their class by then if not then that means they have been carried through which is never a good thing because now your in end game content where everything hits the hardest and has less tolerance for mistakes than lower lvl content so group runs such places like a plat+ cata often pay the price because now you have someone who has been carried through the game trying to perform at a big boy level and don't know what to do so the rest of the group is left trying to do more than their normal load to get through the run successfully. Now please dont take that statement as an insult to anyone if it hurts your feeling than it may have hit home but with wrong intentions. Now it would be safe to assume that not all 95s will have "best" gear or technique sure as some just dont grasp certain aspects as well as others but to say they dont have good gear or technique is really that players fault. There are some things that i just dont do like crafting so if i want good gear then i have to find ways i was lucky and had some help from my guild which i'm very grateful for but i also purchased a lot of gear from the AH and other players via trade channel. I ran almost the entire game with looted gear because i dont craft i did at earlier lvls but gave up for reasons i dont wanna get into here even then the lvls i did have seen no mastered gear lol. Once again plz dont take it as an insult because I never mean to purposely put someone down im just a direct person and am often mistaken for being overly aggressive :)
I read just half-way through your post, and since you are quoting me I believe this wall of text is towards me? I believe you 100% misunderstood the quoted message and where it was directed at.
 

AshCloud

Shaman
Platform
  1. iOS
Yeah, hybrids are really strong and there's one big mechanic that helps them all right now in a strange way: the magnified crafted runes.

Crafted ability runes go up 4 levels higher than you can get dropped. The abilities on the crafted weapon for each subclass get a bonus for this reason and those abilities are nearly universally then worth taking on the other subclass, just because of the large boost.

Standard level damage for lvl 95 is 5806, for lvl 99 it's 7662, a 32% increase.

Add in to that the idea that each subclass has 2-3 "main" damage abilities that have a better "DPS" profile than the other feats which have longer CDs and are more utility/CC/function specific, taking the crafted "main" damage ability from your alternate subclass (or two) becomes a huge benefit (especially since you're just displacing a utility/CC ability and top bosses can't be CC-ed!).

But, all games end up with "no brainer" things like this. It's impossible to balance a game such that there isn't some thing that is "the best". So, maybe it's ok that there is no reason not to take phoenix strike on light warriors or shadow bolt on holy priests. The "solution" to this might make hybridizing very hard and/or other problems. I once brainstormed that perhaps you could have 3 or 4 "big" rune slots and 3 or 4 "little" rune slots. Primary spells with low-ish CD like heal, smite, holy bolt, shadow orbs, gloom, and shadow bolt would have to go in "big" slots, and then longer cooldown/utility spells like divine hammer, darkfrost, judgement, etc could go in the "little" rune slots. Then, presumably to take advantage of talent-driven benefits, you'd need to be pickier with the subclass in the big slots, while still allowing some variation.
As far as hybrid I disagree with the your taking 3 max level crafter runes from the other subclass. I have 2 “hybrids” and one only uses a dropped rune from other subclass. And one uses 1 crafted from Other subclass. So maybe some do this but it’s def not all “hybrids”
 
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AshCloud

Shaman
Platform
  1. iOS
Can you tell me where I game it tells you to stop using dropped runes on armor pieces and go for crafted glyphrunes? You don’t have 95 levels to figure it out. Someone else learned and passed that knowledge on. Nothing in game tells you this that's built into the game
 

AshCloud

Shaman
Platform
  1. iOS
Can you tell me where I game it tells you to stop using dropped runes on armor pieces and go for crafted glyphrunes? You don’t have 95 levels to figure it out. Someone else learned and passed that knowledge on. Nothing in game tells you this that's built into the game
This is @Drakz but went wonky XD
 

AshCloud

Shaman
Platform
  1. iOS
i dont understand why people say hybrids are soo strong i mean you gonna be weak in one or the other subclass. Priest for example you have shadow and Holy with Balance as a neutral ground. if you put points in holy and shadow then obviously your gonna have points in holy affinity but once you begin putting points in shadow now your faced with the issue of putting points in both affinities in order to excel at both sub classes involved in your build or just put points in one of the affinities and let the other lag behind. Sure you could do both affinities but then you would suffer in other talents. In order to be the strongest in any subclass you must stick to one or the other. A pure holy will always out heal a hybrid and a pure shadow should always out dps a hybrid. Now people sometimes are calling a Holy with a few points in balance a hybrid but in all actuality its not. Balance is a neutral ground thats why you dont see it having a balance affinity and you dont see a balance class its either shadow or holy. So shadow+balance or Holy+balance are both still pure till you mix shadow in with holy or vise verse. The only way you could spend all your points if you have any rb at all is to place points in a balance or by going hybrid. so basically in order to achieve the most from any one class is to pick one and stick with it. Now i am not at all trying to discourage anyone from playing a hybrid and not saying they cant be strong please just play what ever build you want as long as you enjoy it .
I think there is a lot of misconceptions on “hybrids” on my 2 toons that are legit “hybrids” as indicated in your definition I never suffered anywhere lol.
 

Drakz

Legendary Hero
Characters
Drakz, Zelior, Glacier, Scab, Drakzy, Ground Pounder.
Platform
  1. PC
Can you tell me where I game it tells you to stop using dropped runes on armor pieces and go for crafted glyphrunes? You don’t have 95 levels to figure it out. Someone else learned and passed that knowledge on. Nothing in game tells you this that's built into the game
i never said anything about runes
 

Drakz

Legendary Hero
Characters
Drakz, Zelior, Glacier, Scab, Drakzy, Ground Pounder.
Platform
  1. PC
I think there is a lot of misconceptions on “hybrids” on my 2 toons that are legit “hybrids” as indicated in your definition I never suffered anywhere lol.
well build a holy make it hybrid put it against a pure holt and see which one heals better and can maintain longer in tough situations as healer sure the hybrid would do more dps but the pure holy will out heal the hybrid because in order to max out your healing your gonna need sanctified hands 40 points, Heavens prayer 30 points, Divine inspiration 20 points, zealous mending 5 points, Ultimate shield 10 points, Natural Talent 15 points, that leaves you with 10 points to disperse where ever, like maybe like strength of will for the armor and magic resist maybe for a bit more survivability. Now that's to be the most effective healer that a holy can be. Sure you can start dropping from here and there then you start losing ultimates and no benefiting from them which decreases certain bonuses and such to what gain dps fine nothing wrong with that if that's your play style but you will still be the weaker healer now that just going off talents getting into gear as we both know will change things even farther. no body said hybrids were weak just saying not as strong as pure subclass. in order to be best at that subclass you need the feats that compliment it. same in life you have peeps who are "jack of all trades" who are still good at what they do but then you have the guy who specializes in a certain field and he is going to have more knowledge or ability than the jack of all trades the down fall to a pure class is they are not as versatile so you have to take the good with the bad when deciding if you want to go pure or hybrid. like me i use to play dps with holy class now sure i could have squeezed more dps by making hybrid since i didnt really do the group healer thing unless absolutely necessary but i didnt.
 

Renaiss

Reader
Yeah, hybrids are really strong and there's one big mechanic that helps them all right now in a strange way: the magnified crafted runes.

Crafted ability runes go up 4 levels higher than you can get dropped. The abilities on the crafted weapon for each subclass get a bonus for this reason and those abilities are nearly universally then worth taking on the other subclass, just because of the large boost.
None of my toons are hybrids, but 3 of the 4 do use hybrid, crafted weapons. Except in the rare instances when I find crafted weapons for each subclass in the AH, I usually make or buy a good quality, crafted weapon for my chosen subclass, then craft an uncommon weapon for the other subclass. If I have free sockets from an EZ, I'll add 2 feats from the alternate subclass weapon to the main subclass weapon: otherwise, I usually just add one.

Although the 4 extra levels on high quality, crafted gear are nice, that was never my motivation for using them. All of my toons are several (15-30) levels higher than their quest levels, and I don't like raids. Since I have zero chance of getting dropped/rewarded gear at a usable level, my only option is to make or buy the gear I need. I started adding feats from the alternate subclass' weapons out of necessity too. For instance, while Nature's Veil is handy for my nature hunter, it's not useful in actual combat, especially in EZs or raids. Just killing mobs is difficult with only 2 "attacks" on a bow, hence the need to add something from a marksman bow. It also suits my play style to have 2, single-target attacks with very short cool-down rates.

Anyway, since every player has the option of using a hybrid weapon or taking advantage of the extra levels possible from crafted weapons, I don't think anything needs to be changed. Then again, I really don't understand why it matters if some players are able to do more damage than others. The only thing that should matter is whether or not players are happy & successful with their own builds/weapons.
 
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AshCloud

Shaman
Platform
  1. iOS
i never said anything about runes
But you did say a 95 has 95 levels to figure out build, and the runes from crafted gear are what makes you better when used correctly so yea, you didn’t specifically say it but you implied all the little details you would figure out.
 

Cosmickitty

Bog Frog
Platform
  1. iOS
Not every talent on every class is good, which is why hybrids flourish. For holy example, consecration the 10pt talent is a fairly small heal and dps, the shield is kinda meh as well. if you don’t use those 10 pts they can be used elsewhere. New DI seems mildly useful as well, if you’re not concerned with reflecting heals on yourself that’s more pts.

To make a good hybrid build you have to fully understand each talent and how they work. Figure out which abilities are the “best of” or… just search the forum for hybrid priest builds and let someone else do the hard work for you 😂
 
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SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
a pure shadow should always out dps a hybrid.

That's just the thing, this is false at least as far as runes go. The maxed crafted Holy Bolt is more DPS than anything else a shadow priest could put in their 7th slot. (And it's arguable due to longer cast time/rotation, but smite is likely more dps than the 6th slot option). (As far as talent points go, you could be right that there's no need to put any points in holy, but perhaps the first 5 points which gives that reactive damage when you're damaged is more valuable than whatever last 5 points a shadow would put elsewhere).

And as far as pure holy out-healing hybrid, that's slightly true, but adding the 5-pt talent hexing shadows and a single shadow spell makes the holy priest able to reduce monster damage by 10%, which is like a 10% boost mass heal or something. No way to gain that with the same investment elsewhere. So, there's always (at least as far as I've seen) a math benefit to being hybrid.

But... yeah, I don't know that anything needs to be changed, there are these types of "build oddities" in any game. There will always be something that is mathematically the best, and V and H is a very easy game in a lot of ways, there is no need to be the maxed to complete the toughest content.
 

Tareco

Grand Priest
Characters
Tareco & GaiaFørce
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Not every talent on every class is good, which is why hybrids flourish. For holy example, consecration the 10pt talent is a fairly small heal and dps, the shield is kinda meh as well. if you don’t use those 10 pts they can be used elsewhere. New DI seems mildly useful as well, if you’re not concerned with reflecting heals on yourself that’s more pts.

To make a good hybrid build you have to fully understand each talent and how they work. Figure out which abilities are the “best of” or… just search the forum for hybrid priest builds and let someone else do the hard work for you 😂
Talking about not every talent/ult being good always remind me of this ultimate, does anyone ever used that thing? 🤭

Screenshot_20230321-124721_1.jpg
 

Zazie

BRA Member
Royal Guardian
Characters
Zazie, Shiny, Skip, Auntie, Neither, Baa
Platform
  1. PC
Talking about not every talent/ult being good always remind me of this ultimate, does anyone ever used that thing? 🤭

View attachment 19154
In all the years since that was added to the game, I only know of one holy priest who has ever used it! It was Alexa Phoenix, and it was in Vale, at Prisma. She got that Ultimate out of morbid curiosity —Used it just once, and immediately reset her talents!!! :ROFLMAO:
 
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Drakz

Legendary Hero
Characters
Drakz, Zelior, Glacier, Scab, Drakzy, Ground Pounder.
Platform
  1. PC
But you did say a 95 has 95 levels to figure out build, and the runes from crafted gear are what makes you better when used correctly so yea, you didn’t specifically say it but you implied all the little details you would figure out.
once again your wrong i never said that once what i said was people had 95 levels to figure out techniques and 95 lvls to figure out how to get good gear also i never said one single thing about runes so i don't know where you coming with this from its all right there in black and white bud.
 

Drakz

Legendary Hero
Characters
Drakz, Zelior, Glacier, Scab, Drakzy, Ground Pounder.
Platform
  1. PC
Not every talent on every class is good, which is why hybrids flourish. For holy example, consecration the 10pt talent is a fairly small heal and dps, the shield is kinda meh as well. if you don’t use those 10 pts they can be used elsewhere. New DI seems mildly useful as well, if you’re not concerned with reflecting heals on yourself that’s more pts.

To make a good hybrid build you have to fully understand each talent and how they work. Figure out which abilities are the “best of” or… just search the forum for hybrid priest builds and let someone else do the hard work for you 😂
as small as it may be its still a bonus and you can spend the points anywhere else you like but i did not say anyhting about that i said that by having those talents or ultimates what ever you would be the stronger healer and there is no denying that spending those talents on any shadow tree is not going to boost your healing it may boost your dps but thats not what i said what was said and i quote myself "Now that's to be the most effective healer that a holy can be. Sure you can start dropping from here and there then you start losing ultimates and no benefiting from them which decreases certain bonuses and such to what gain dps fine nothing wrong with that if that's your play style but you will still be the weaker healer" i mean wow
 

Antavious

Warrior
Characters
Antavious, suoivatna
Platform
  1. iOS
Last edited
About stuns: in general I believe the point of this nerf was so we could choose not to use liberty drams (please correct me if I’m wrong) ultimately the change seams to have failed players of all classes are having more trouble than before and even with my peak def I still feel im far more likely to die in stun heavy encounters due to the cc, the reason the nerf didn’t work is because it’s mostly stuns from mobs in groups amplifying the usefulness of the stun that are the problem (when your fighting one mob a stun is no big deal unless it’s exceptionally long, but against a group shorter stuns do the trick the same way they are the normal target for the old necklace stuns)
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
I used Tempest of the Roc in conjunction with my Nature heal to stay alive while solo raiding, and it was an unpleasant surprise to have the heal portion ripped off. I agree wholeheartedly that the rune needed adjustment, but would have loved it if Nature Hunters had been asked for feedback on it first.

What was the heal amount and cooldown?

I find that a lot of the abilities in this game seemed like they did something, but in reality, were so small/long cooldown, their effect was negligible. (Mass shield for instance - good idea, but cooldown + value meant it was tiny benefit, not worth slotting, with the addition of the bless component, this could be different)
 
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  • Likex2
Platform
  1. PC
What was the heal amount and cooldown?

I find that a lot of the abilities in this game seemed like they did something, but in reality, were so small/long cooldown, their effect was negligible. (Mass shield for instance - good idea, but cooldown + value meant it was tiny benefit, not worth slotting, with the addition of the bless component, this could be different)
They didn't just add the bless component - they took away the (very small) mana boost at end of shields... and replaced it with 10% damage bounce back.... which could be very nice for some (especially a nature hunter atm).... or very small for others. I've been trying to make sure that I always have the spell going - not sure how much it adds <but, every little bit helps, right?> :D
 
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