Raids - balancing solo raids

[Ashwin K]

Really dramatic
Is it normal to use of 30-40 full hp to finish prince?
If that is something that was planned by devs then okay. I'm not masochist to push to platinum like that.
I'm not interested even doing it with lower alts because I won't get back invested.

Get ur priest maxed so that u won't need to that much premium stuffs xd..by the way gratz on getting gold on wiz and it is not easy task at all

 

[Rubyn]

I did spend many sockets to adjust to raid. My armor/mr during fight is usually around 55%+ (glory, avatar), hp 300k+ (350k+ with heal trinkets), mastery is minimum 180%, goes 200%+ during fight. Those are not low numbers but I'm very easily killed at levels 30+ if I dare to kill groups of mobs in any raid, instead of going slowly, at prince I am down below 100k hp very fast.
Lowering dmg is not option because of timer.

 

[Ekimie]

Get ur priest maxed so that u won't need to that much premium stuffs xd..by the way gratz on getting gold on wiz and it is not easy task at all

Yeah but we shouldn't have to all en masse move to holy priests because raids are impossible on our main/fav toon . If the rewards were acc bound that would not be too bad, but my hunter wants the plates, not my priest

 

[Primum Auxilium]

I shall withdraw from this thread. I have challenges to overcome.

 

[Carly]

I don't consider finding a group to carry me as challenge I want from raids.

I wouldn’t call it a carry, even for all 95s group it requires team coordination and strategizing.
But yeah I actually take back above ^ and going to have to agree with you. Reflect damage is cruel, probably will be even at 20%. I’m at the solo level where I would have to use a full heal in my rotation to survive. Have tested different builds, gear etc etc using every buff possible, nothing works except for running in a group with priest. No further progression solo in palace for me, yet my other maps I can still solo 5-6 levels above current palace level.

 

[Klaeklae]

I wouldn’t call it a carry, even for all 95s group it requires team coordination and strategizing.
But yeah I actually take back above ^ and going to have to agree with you. Reflect damage is cruel, probably will be even at 20%. I’m at the solo level where I would have to use a full heal in my rotation to survive. Have tested different builds, gear etc etc using every buff possible, nothing works except for running in a group with priest. No further progression solo in palace for me, yet my other maps I can still solo 5-6 levels above current palace level.

Your palace raid level is also lvl 40.. you top 1%er you!

In my opinion, I'd say using a full heal at this level would be acceptable, especially if an EZ is happening since they are readily available. Its the reward at 50 which should probably be increased, or the per level rewards.. or both.

 

[Ekimie]

I wouldn’t call it a carry, even for all 95s group it requires team coordination and strategizing.

Trust me, if you're in Neia's team, it's definitely a carry

 

[Rubyn]

Your palace raid level is also lvl 40.. you top 1%er you!

In my opinion, I'd say using a full heal at this level would be acceptable, especially if an EZ is happening since they are readily available. Its the reward at 50 which should probably be increased, or the per level rewards.. or both.

I don't say we shouldn't use any full heal or other consumables, but they should be as back up not main strategy.

 

[Klaeklae]

I don't say we shouldn't use any full heal or other consumables, but they should be as back up not main strategy.

I would totally get that if they were shop items or super hard to come by.

But that is not the case. The game is built on acquiring things in one part of the game to use in another. To me, full heals (when available in EZ) are no different. Incrementally greater challenges should require incrementally greater efforts. I guess maybe its the increment that is in question.

If the goal is to be able to make it to platinum without any full hp pots, then... ok? I guess that'd be the equivalent of... the rest if the game? Aren't higher level raids different?

I think the real issues are:

1) Some people think this game shouldn't have super challenging content (valid opinion based on the rest of the game);

2) The raids are one size fits all (for rewards) when different classes have different level caps;

3) Some people arm chair theorize (without lemonade) what raid difficulty should be without having actually attempted or accomplished the levels in question personally.

Personally, I'll just keep pushing through with my lemonade despite people telling me they are too difficult to be doing and OMG don't use a full heal because that isn't what they are for.

When I hit a wall ill report back. I'm currently 4 raids from solo gold.

-Klaeklae

Edit: spelling

 

[Rubyn]

What I mean is that you get to point where change in your gear, talents, spell order, trinket choice can all be forgotten because all you need is full hp pot to rely on. Any strategy, skill, anything improved in toon becomes useless. Strategy becomes throwing away any strategy and relying on pots.
I don't want it easy, seems to me you get it that way. Super challenge, okay, but there is achievable challenge and unrealistic challenge. When 4 normal mobs start killing me in 2 sec, that's far from normal.

 

[Black_Cvlt]

What I mean is that you get to point where change in your gear, talents, spell order, trinket choice can all be forgotten because all you need is full hp pot to rely on. Any strategy, skill, anything improved in toon becomes useless

Useless? I'll have to use 500 hp pots per run without any strategy or skill and 5 hp pots with good strat & skill.

 

[Halleebell]

Useless? I'll have to use 500 hp pots per run without any strategy or skill and 5 hp pots with good strat & skill.

At prince?

 

[Ildranach]

3) Some people arm chair theorize (without lemonade) what raid difficulty should be without having actually attempted or accomplished the levels in question personally.

Get gold as a dps class in palace then come back and make that statement. Otherwise don't dismiss people who have done so and are rightfully concerned about the difficulty.

 

[Klaeklae]

Get gold as a dps class in palace then come back and make that statement. Otherwise don't dismiss people who have done so and are rightfully concerned about the difficulty.

Don't dismiss people who are up to the challenge.

 

[Halleebell]

Don't dismiss people who are up to the challenge.

Who said we are not up for a challenge? Is using a full heal or dying every 4 hits or so sound fun to you?

 

[Ildranach]

Don't dismiss people who are up to the challenge.

Your experiences are presumably a healer class. Several dps classes have already explained their experience here, having tried the raid at high challenge levels. Raids are not balanced across classes, and nowhere is that more obvious than palace. You are saying that they are crying because it's too hard but you don't even play a dps class.
This was you earlier in the thread:
"I dont play a fire wiz, so I can't comment about them or help too much. I can see where sustain issues would come into play."
Dps classes have much less sustain. If you have not played the class, your arguments that someone is not up to the challenge are ignorant at best and nonsensical at worst.

So, to reiterate: stop dismissing dps players' complaints until you have gotten gold as a dps class. Water sham and holy priest do not count.

 

[Klaeklae]

Who said we are not up for a challenge? Is using a full heal or dying every 4 hits or so sound fun to you?

Well, I guess you aren't.

At any rate, sounds like this is a problem revolving around #2 in my post above.. through no fault of your own.

But some classes and players (probably some that play your class) aren't in your i-die-in-every-four-hits scenario. What about them? Should they be subjected to giant nerfs or easy raids so that you can have a challenge or get through a particular level with no full hp pots?

Yes, that's ridiculous.

The problem is that the raid ceiling levels for the classes are all different, as are their power curves, yet the reward levels are all the same.

Maybe the discussion should revolve around that.

Thank goodness for 3 and 6 player raids.

-klaeklae

 

[Klaeklae]

Your experiences are presumably a healer class. Several dps classes have already explained their experience here, having tried the raid at high challenge levels. Raids are not balanced across classes, and nowhere is that more obvious than palace. You are saying that they are crying because it's too hard but you don't even play a dps class.
This was you earlier in the thread:
"I dont play a fire wiz, so I can't comment about them or help too much. I can see where sustain issues would come into play."
Dps classes have much less sustain. If you have not played the class, your arguments that someone is not up to the challenge are ignorant at best and nonsensical at worst.

So, to reiterate: stop dismissing dps players' complaints until you have gotten gold as a dps class. Water sham and holy priest do not count.

I actually main a shaman. I ran 47k dps in the 95 elder run this morning handily beating everyone else. I use the same build in raids. Its a dps build.

I dont presume to know what you play or your level or your actual skill level.

But your beef isn't with me, its with the power curve of the classes as I noted previously.

Yes, shaman do well with raids.

-klaeklae

 

[Ildranach]

I actually main a shaman. I ran 47k dps in the 95 elder run this morning handily beating everyone else. I use the same build in raids. Its a dps build.

I dont presume to know what you play or your level or your actual skill level.

But your beef isn't with me, its with the power curve of the classes as I noted previously.

Yes, shaman do well with raids.

-klaeklae

I have alts of every class. I've found it disturbingly easy to run things in my undergeared holy priest compared to my fire wiz which tends to die a lot. Hunter at on-level purple/orange gear performs about the same as said undergeared holy priest(blues/greens, some items 10 levels below), which proves that classes are pretty wildly unbalanced.

We seem to agree that:
1) Classes are unbalanced in solo
2) Some classes are stronger than others in solo
but you also seem to insist on dismissing the experiences of your fellow players.
If you're having no trouble in solos, great! Check your privilege and stop assuming it's the same across all.

My beef is actually with you having not played the classes that are struggling and presuming to know their challenge level, which is wildly different than shaman with their many sustain spells available to their class... I think there was 6 if Attune to Water counts.
Wiz has two. Hunter has two. That's two out of five classes that would be struggling, or 40%. (I'm not sure about shadow priest; haven't touched that side yet.)
My beef is with you telling classes that have issues with solo raids because of this disparity to suck it up and 'face the challenge'.
My beef is with you implying that players who are struggling because of class balance in raids are not up to the challenge, when they've optimized their builds, sockets and rotations for raids and are still chugging premiums like they're water.
My beef is with you whining that classes that are already strong in raids will feel less 'challenged' because classes that are struggling need a pick-me-up, when raids are supposed to be doable for all players and all classes.

I have nothing against challenge.
I would prefer the challenge be something meaningful across classes, rather than a dps/sustain check with zero counterplay, which Prince reflect is.
Thorns isn't a meaningful mechanic, especially when the only useful solution to said challenge is spamming EZ consumables at higher levels.

And yes, there is a period of time when EZ is not available; raids shouldn't be balanced around their presence.

So, once more to clarify: Go get gold as a wiz or a hunter on Palace, then come back and say people aren't meeting the challenge.[/QUOTE]

 

[Halleebell]

Well, I guess you aren't.

At any rate, sounds like this is a problem revolving around #2 in my post above.. through no fault of your own.

But some classes and players (probably some that play your class) aren't in your i-die-in-every-four-hits scenario. What about them? Should they be subjected to giant nerfs or easy raids so that you can have a challenge or get through a particular level with no full hp pots?

Yes, that's ridiculous.

The problem is that the raid ceiling levels for the classes are all different, as are their power curves, yet the reward levels are all the same.

Maybe the discussion should revolve around that.

Thank goodness for 3 and 6 player raids.

-klaeklae

Which hunters do you know that are not using a crap ton of full heals at prince before the changes? Without darring buffs. My stats are pretty even. So Iv given up some dps for defense. I don’t pretend to be the best. And again Iv never said I’m opposed to full heals nor do I want it to be easy...Why do you keep making that assumption? Simply cause I don’t think I should be using 10+ full heals? While at other bosses I’m using 2 maybe 3 tops... How can that not be unbalanced in someway? Personally I’m glad they made the change they did though I wish they would of kept it to the one they stated first. But you keep assuming things that are simply not true. Your playing a class that has a bit more push then most dps classes. What’s the point of having solo raids if people can’t solo? What’s the point of having 15 player raids if players can’t even get through a run without dying a handful of times? These are questions that need to be asked and looked at... and so far Iv seen far more players agreeing with prince being over powered then players objecting.