KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Last edited
Since it has been publicly confirmed that Dungeoneering and Relics will reset with each Raid Season, I wanted to open a discussion about the current progression system. Personally I think the infinite challenge levels were an interesting idea, but it doesn't seem as if each additional challenge level beyond 10 adds anything unique. Consecutive challenge levels from 10 and onwards increase both health and damage but this is mitigated by the increase in health and ability damage from Dungeoneering and other stat boosts from Relics, so it feels the same. This makes the trek to infinity a matter of time and patience rather than skill and strategy.

On top of that, the Relics and Dungeoneering can quickly segregate the playerbase as those who are trying to increase their ranks must continue to push higher challenge levels and earn little to nothing from helping others out with lower challenge levels. I'm afraid the Raids are moving more towards solo player trials rather than cooperative group content. I do Guild Raids and often the best players with the highest levels earn absolutely nothing by running with friends who are at lower challenge levels. This is a drastic difference from the old Dungeons where everyone ran with everyone and was rewarded equally.

Personally, here is what I would like to see from Raid progression and Challenge levels:

Step 1: Remove Dungeoneering. The purpose of this mechanic was to allow players to grow enough in health and damage in order to meet their next challenge level. The side effect is that players with high Dungoneering are gods when running with newer friends, and that players with low dungeoneering can contribute little to nothing when running with their higher ranked friends. With what I'll be proposing below, this will no longer be needed.

Step 2: Remove or reformat Relics. The reasoning is almost identical to the above. Personally I think Relics would be neater if they added non-stat related boosts such as:
  • 1 Auto resurrect per Raid Session
  • 15% Speed boost in Raids
  • ...
Step 3: Restructure Challenge levels. Instead of an infinite level system, I have something else in mind which I feel would be more conducive to a cooperative system. We would continue to have Tiers, and each of these Tiers would feel different from the last.
  • Bronze: Simplest form of the Raid. Few enemy mechanics and tasks. Quick runs and no boss punishments
  • Silver: Add additional routes, enemies, mechanics and some boss punishments
  • Gold: More of the above
  • Platinum: More of the above, and the punishments are hardcore - if you mess up, you're dead.
So there are only these 4 Tiers to choose from and no 'challenge levels' in between or beyond. But here's where things get interesting. Currently, when you are creating a Raid you have a few configuration options:
View attachment 8277
I would like to see this expanded and allow players to configure their Raids to become harder. As players add difficulty configurations, their Tier will gain a 'level'. So for example, if a player opts to increase the health of all bosses in their Gold Tier Raid by 10%, then that Raid is now Gold II. Players can customize and design the Raids to be as difficult as they want in this way, and without Dungeoneering and Relics players will never 'outgrow' one another or certain Raids. It's just a matter of playing at a difficulty that suits you or your team, not at a difficulty that is required by your 'Raid Level'.

So what types of configuration can players add? There are plenty of options, and each Tier can unlock additional ones! Below are some potential examples
  • +10% Enemy Health up to +X%
    • Players can increase enemy health as much as they wish up to a certain cap. This cap can be increased at Silver, Gold and Platinum. If players choose to increase enemy health by 30% then they've added 3 ranks to their difficulty. So Bronze III for instance.
  • +10% Enemy Damage up to +X%
    • Same as above
  • Minion Affixes
    • Add Affixes to the regular minions
  • Player Debuffs
    • Debuffs to players such as a constant poison effect, or random
Of course there can be other modifications as well. Players who choose to increase the difficulty level by using these will earn additional EXP, Gold and loot so it is well worth their while.

That's just my opinion on the current Raid progression, curious to hear what others think. Some questions to ponder below

Do you like Infinite progression?

Will you progress as far as you can each season?

Do the Raids feel as cooperative as Dungeons?

Do you feel the Raids bring players together or separates them?

Do you like Relics?

Do you like Dungeoneering?

Do you think the challenge levels add to the experience?
 

Ohxx

Citizen
Platform
PC
I hope this idea can be realized and make every profession have a good experience
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Do you like Infinite progression?
I do, but the implementation still not good enough especially because of Difficulty ramp Vs Dungeoneering level kinda equal which make progress above lvl 10 kinda just repetitive and boring.

Will you progress as far as you can each season?
I tried to but because of the same reason as previous question, I kinda get bored before hitting my limit.

Do the Raids feel as cooperative as Dungeons?
sadly nope, Dungeon is still a bit ahead on this department, from key/ key fragment management and a fight like Benedicta where player have to watch for each other. On raid there are no such thing yet, well there are things like Lilith's Ice Rune or Zikkiti's Spiders, but the number still need a lot of fine tuning because right now they can just be ignored. Like Zikkiti's should spawn a lot more spider and the spider also need to be much easier to kill, right now killing the spiderling just felt like just a waste of time. The party limit actually make it kinda interesting tho especially at higher level raid, like if the group got no priest or no tank, the group need to take turn tanking or divide I tank half you tank half.

Do you feel the Raids bring players together or separates them?
Not sure about this, but probably more to the separate the players, because it is just much easier to solo and dungeoneering level make it kinda awkward. Like if someone with level 100+ dungeoneering level do a group raid at level 10 raid, it felt like a level 95 coming to help do level 60 elder. Hope that explain how I felt about it.

Do you like Relics?

Do you like Dungeoneering?
I do, but both Relics and Dungeoneering need more fine tuning. I fell they're too powerful right now. I believe they will be better if the power increase is more subtle or more of a quality of life thing. Kinda like your suggestion.

Do you think the challenge levels add to the experience?
I think it does, but as mentioned before the power ramp of dungeoneering level and the raid level kinda equal which make it doesn't really do anything right now.
 

Black_Cvlt

Arch Wizard
Characters
Danger Zone, Black Cvlt, Coup de Grace, Crafty Hands
Platform
Android, PC
On top of that, the Relics and Dungeoneering can quickly segregate the playerbase as those who are trying to increase their ranks must continue to push higher challenge levels and earn little to nothing from helping others out with lower challenge levels. I'm afraid the Raids are moving more towards solo player trials rather than cooperative group content. I do Guild Raids and often the best players with the highest levels earn absolutely nothing by running with friends who are at lower challenge levels. This is a drastic difference from the old Dungeons where everyone ran with everyone and was rewarded equally.
My stat-related boosts make my help to others easier and faster. I can easily boost two guildmates from 1 stage to 20 in any raid. If devs add some ducats for repeating raids, I'll be more motivated.

The purpose of this mechanic was to allow players to grow enough in health and damage in order to meet their next challenge level. The side effect is that players with high Dungoneering are gods when running with newer friends, and that players with low dungeoneering can contribute little to nothing when running with their higher ranked friends.
We completed 3 level 50 raids yesterday, it wasn't easy. Water sham - 164 dungeoneering, light. warrior - 116 d., nature hunter - 63 d. (pretty big gap, isn't it?). And we had to act like a usual party (sham - healer, warrior - tank, hunter - dd). There were no "gods". These runs also required
skill and strategy
So I don't see a problem with relics or dungeoneering.
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
I do, but the implementation still not good enough especially because of Difficulty ramp Vs Dungeoneering level kinda equal which make progress above lvl 10 kinda just repetitive and boring.
Additional challenge levels would need to add something unique beyond health and damage. I would rather see additional / harder affixes, affixes on minions, player debuffs and such to the levels above 20. More mechanics and punishments to figure out.

I tried to but because of the same reason as previous question, I kinda get bored before hitting my limit.
I tend to stop at 10 and find that to be fun and challenging. I don't think level 99 is really much harder than level 10 if you have your relics and Dungeoneering higher. Because all it does is add health and damage.

sadly nope, Dungeon is still a bit ahead on this department, from key/ key fragment management and a fight like Benedicta where player have to watch for each other. On raid there are no such thing yet, well there are things like Lilith's Ice Rune or Zikkiti's Spiders, but the number still need a lot of fine tuning because right now they can just be ignored. Like Zikkiti's should spawn a lot more spider and the spider also need to be much easier to kill, right now killing the spiderling just felt like just a waste of time. The party limit actually make it kinda interesting tho especially at higher level raid, like if the group got no priest or no tank, the group need to take turn tanking or divide I tank half you tank half.
I agree in regards to the boss scripts and mechanics. I am happy that the content requires healers, tanks and DPS but I would prefer running 12 player variants because then it wouldn't matter too much having redundant roles and you could play with all your friends.

Not sure about this, but probably more to the separate the players, because it is just much easier to solo and dungeoneering level make it kinda awkward. Like if someone with level 100+ dungeoneering level do a group raid at level 10 raid, it felt like a level 95 coming to help do level 60 elder. Hope that explain how I felt about it.
My thoughts exactly.

My stat-related boosts make my help to others easier and faster. I can easily boost two guildmates from 1 stage to 20 in any raid. If devs add some ducats for repeating raids, I'll be more motivated.
A player with a high level Dungeoneering steamrolling a group through 20 challenge levels is precisely what I see as the problem. The challenge levels make it more about the destination than the journey.

We completed 3 level 50 raids yesterday, it wasn't easy. Water sham - 164 dungeoneering, light. warrior - 116 d., nature hunter - 63 d. (pretty big gap, isn't it?). And we had to act like a usual party (sham - healer, warrior - tank, hunter - dd). There were no "gods". These runs also required So I don't see a problem with relics or dungeoneering.
What if you had run with a player with rank 1 Dungeoneering? Even if they were level 95 with fully socketed Mythic gear, do you feel they would be able to keep up with the team at a level 50 Raid? If not, that is the segregation that I would rather not see.
 
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Black_Cvlt

Arch Wizard
Characters
Danger Zone, Black Cvlt, Coup de Grace, Crafty Hands
Platform
Android, PC
What if you had run with a player with rank 1 Dungeoneering? Even if they were level 95 with fully socketed Mythic gear, do you feel they would be able to keep up with the team at a level 50 Raid? If not, that is the segregation that I would rather not see.
What if you had 95 Elders run with a players with level 1? Even if they were rebirthed 5 times with fully socketed gear, do you feel they would be able to keep up with the team at 95 elders? If not, that is the segregation that I would rather not see.
...
...
Do you feel it? A slight whiff of absurdity?
Do you really want to be a useful raid player with zero hours of character improving in this type of activity?
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Do you really want to be a useful raid player with zero hours of character improving in this type of activity?
Thank you, this is exactly the point I'm trying to make. Even if a player has hundreds of hours improving their character outside of a Raid, without climbing the Raid specific progression system they will fall behind an otherwise equally suited player who has.

We currently have the following overarching forms of progression in-game:
  • Character Level / Rebirths
  • Gear / Build
These will determine how powerful a character is when participating in content and they also tend to go hand in hand. Player's at max level generally will also spend time and resources improving their build. We've already seen that there are massive performance gaps with this structure, but that's the devil we know.

With Raids, we're adding in 2 additional progression paths:
  • Dungeoneering
  • Relics
So now even if two players are equal outside of Raids, one can perform vastly better than the other inside of Raids due to the above mentioned progression models. Those with better gear and combat levels will soar past those without, and those with higher dungeoneering and relics will fly further still. This divides the Raid community between multiple progression systems: Their level, gear, Dungeoneering and Relics.

I would rather see Dungeoneering and Relics removed to avoid partitioning the community as such. Yes, there will still be a split between those with and without proper builds, but at least Dungeoneering and Relics will no longer be a factor to divide that community even further. This would also require changing how challenge levels work. Instead of increased health and damage to be mitigated, they should add more punishments, player debuffs, affixes, zone-wide debuffs etc. for those seeking the greatest challenge.

I'm not a fan of the current system where some of my friends are dozens of levels above and others dozens below and even if we're all equal outside of Raids we are unbalanced inside of them.
 

Imtabled2

Citizen
Characters
Orla, Rowahn, Amrin
Platform
iOS, PC
Do you like Infinite progression?
If infinite progression is done well, yes. But for infinite progression to work, it has to also be "infinite variety". It can't be the same thing over and over again as it currently is, that gets boring. Especially when the season ends and it goes back to 1 and I now have to do the exact same thing I just did the last season with no change.

Will you progress as far as you can each season?
If I get some sort of fulfillment out of it. The rewards need to exceed the mat intensiveness of the current raids. They currently do not.

Do the Raids feel as cooperative as Dungeons?
Yes and No. I think this may be the wrong question?

Yes, I have worked hard with some specific 6 player teams to get through a high level raid and it was way more fulfilling on completion than the old dungeons were. We had to work really hard to do what we did.
No. With only 6 people and every player needing to be working hard, it is much a harder to run with a random group. The second a player below 80 wants to join you have to essentially do a raid below level 10 which makes the higher raid players not want to do as there is just not enough reward.

I think this is the wrong question actually. The dungeons weren't particularly cooperative. Tons of people ran in those parties and did next to nothing. Not much cooperation was needed. However, they were way more inclusive. The raids I would argue especially as it gets harder the team needs to be more cooperative but it is not inclusive.

Do you feel the Raids bring players together or separates them?
It brings like level players together. I believe Raids were meant to be doable by everyone, but a low/mid level toon is pretty much not able to after level 5 unless they are in a party with high level toons doing most of the work.

Do you like Relics?
Yes, I love the relics. Are they a little OP? Yup. I cant even imagine having access to all 7. I would actually like to seem them keep their stat buffs. But I think it would be interesting if you had to choose between which relics you could have activated. For instance, you could only have 3 of the 7 and you would be able to change your relics based off of your role in the raid and which raid you are doing.

Do you like Dungeoneering?
Kinda? I like having the mastery and vitality buffs with the raids current set up they are definitely needed. Would prefer to see this as a relic that you can activate or deactivate.

Do you think the challenge levels add to the experience?
The current just making them slightly stronger and have more health no? Right now I would describe the raids not as how skilled are you as a player but how many mats do you feel like wasting today?

Step 3: Restructure Challenge levels. Instead of an infinite level system, I have something else in mind which I feel would be more conducive to a cooperative system. We would continue to have Tiers, and each of these Tiers would feel different from the last.
  • Bronze: Simplest form of the Raid. Few enemy mechanics and tasks. Quick runs and no boss punishments
  • Silver: Add additional routes, enemies, mechanics and some boss punishments
  • Gold: More of the above
  • Platinum: More of the above, and the punishments are hardcore - if you mess up, you're dead.
I really like this idea and it also makes the idea of being able to do it infinitely easier. Also you can choose the challenge your team cab do.
Rewards would have to be different and higher for each tier you complete, BUT it should also be the same for everyone who participates in that tier.
I also think it would be cool rather than completing bronze 5 times to progress, you had to do something in the raid to unlock the next level. For instance a team completing a bronze in under 10 minutes is probably ready to do a silver tier so it unlocks.
 

Black_Cvlt

Arch Wizard
Characters
Danger Zone, Black Cvlt, Coup de Grace, Crafty Hands
Platform
Android, PC
So now even if two players are equal outside of Raids, one can perform vastly better than the other inside of Raids due to the above mentioned progression models
This would be a real problem if dungeoneering worked outside the raids. But it's completely separate part of the game.
Btw, relics work more towards equalizing characters rather than creating a gap, because of diminishing return for 2 of 3 stats (the third is epic stat + stat breaker from ultimate).
 

Hiffy

Wizard
Platform
iOS
Last edited
Do you like Infinite progression?
Right now, raids aren't technically infinite progression because the raids cap at level 99 and you can't progress further than that. Overall as an idea, I can see the appeal of having infinite progression as something to do when people are bored or want to continually challenge themselves, other than that, not much of a strong opinion on this.

Will you progress as far as you can each season?
Personally, I will only progress so far as to whatever level the rewards are at. After that I'm simply not incentivized to spend my buffs and time on something that doesn't give me anything tangible in return i.e., I would rather spend the buffs on a 95 run and get loots vs spending the same amount on buffs on raids and getting no additional rewards other than relic and dungeoneering levels.


Do the Raids feel as cooperative as Dungeons?
Raids are cooperative in the sense that when you get to higher level raids, more tactics are needed to be employed in order to successfully clear the level. Past certain levels, teamwork becomes more important, but then again - you can only have a maximum of 6 people in a raid at any given time. Right now raids feel more like a "follow the leader and don't die" and just trying to kill whatever you see.

I felt that dungeons were more coorperative because you needed more people to complete them, and more people had roles, like tanking, forming the key, healing etc. Right now it feels like the raid leader is the one doing everything and everyone else just follows along and doesn't need to do much besides kill and stay alive.

Do you feel the Raids bring players together or separates them?
I think the leaderboards speak for themselves where you see more people doing solo raids rather than 3 or 6 man. Firstly, many have mentioned that solo raids are much easier than 3 or 6 man raids. Furthermore, the rewards for the 3 and 6 man are the same as doing a solo raid - so if you can solo and get the same rewards, why make it harder for yourself unless you want to help your friends etc.?

I feel that another major reason why people choose to solo is because of the discrepancy with everyone's relic and dungeoneering levels. You might want to attempt a higher raid level as a challenge with a group of 6, but then you want to get everyone at roughly the same relic/dg level in order to make everyone's lives easier.

For example, I recently tried running a 6 man palace with a few friends who took a break from the game. We wanted to try a higher level raid, but because they were gone for awhile they didn't even have the relic activated for palace yet. Despite them being max level with good gears, they died constantly and in the end just said "we have to get our relic to at least rank 16 before we can do group raids" - and isn't that sort of creating an unecessary barrier towards trying to get people to do group raids? I would rather just be able to include whoever wants to do group raids at any given time without people feeling the need to raise their own relic levels to at least 16 before wanting to participate.

Overall, I think raids want to bring players together, but the mechanics of it is making it hard to do so. Or at least makes some players suffer much more than others in the group.


Do you like Relics? Do you like Dungeoneering?
I like the idea that you get a relic tied to each raid, but I largely agree with your points regarding this matter. What you proposed I feel would work better than the current relic and dungeoneering system we have in place at the moment.

Do you think the challenge levels add to the experience?
Challenge levels add to the experience, but only if the rewards justify the effort required to achieve those levels. In the sense that the old dungeons had different rewards tied in to gold/silver/bronze timings, and how raids have certain rewards at certain levels, the challenge levels work. Once the rewards end though, I feel like so does a lot of people's motivations.
 
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SpikedJuice

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS, PC
Indeed, the part about the 2 independent progression systems (raid and normal game), makes advancement feel very fragmented. If we could marry them together, it would feel less like playing two separate games. The old dungeons did not feel this way.

I think Damon acknowledged something along the lines of having to step back before moving forward. Fingers crossed they’ll factor in some of these comments as they make changes. Perhaps the ducats system will fix some of the shortfalls in rewards discussed previously.
 

Lamorack

Great Adventurer
Platform
iOS
I agree with Kave’s proposals and rationale. I think the end result would be more cohesive with non game play and more sustainable among a wider player base since it caters for casual raiders as well as raid focused players.
 

Dawnfire

Great Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
Athon Dawnfire
Platform
Android, PC
I like your idea of having tiers and each tier adding new twists to the runs, and modifiers seem pretty good too. Now to answer the questions.

Do you like Infinite progression?
I care very little about it, if some people want to push as far as the can for bragging rights or just to prove it to themselves, I'm fine with it. If it grants noticeable advantages against others I'd be against it.

Will you progress as far as you can each season?

Most likely no. I'm in it for the rewards and fun gameplay. If some currency is added and higher levels will yield better results I might, but as of now definitely not.

Do the Raids feel as cooperative as Dungeons?

Yes and no. Running anything besides solo does feel like coop, but the player restriction of 6 is too little. I'd prefer a higher cap. Also more coop mechanics.

Do you feel the Raids bring players together or separates them?

I think Dungeons brought them together more. It was all a big family running it together, regardless of skill level and it worked for the most part. I think having the solo option is fine, solo players shouldn't be cut from this content, however there needs to be more incentive to run it with others (like increased rewards). So as of now compared to Dungeons I feel like it separates them more, since no coop is needed to get what you want.

Do you like Relics?

I think relics could be good seasonal progression items, but right now they only increase stats and offer stat breakers. It just feels boring. I'd prefer them to add some new mechanics or extra effects to feats. Maybe even having cursed relics that offer good and bad things at the same time.

Do you like Dungeoneering?

No. I feel like Relics are enough as a sort of Raid only progression. It is also one of the reasons why people can technically run any challenge level granted they farm it long enough, taking away the challenge part. This should be scraped.

Do you think the challenge levels add to the experience?
Until they introduce new mechanics, new routes, new enemies yes. But at some point they just mean more Health and Damage, which will get mitigated by high enough Dungeoneering/Relic levels, taking away the feeling of challenge. I'd very much prefer your proposition to the current system.
 
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Lalocat

Hunter
Characters
Lalocat
Platform
Android, PC
Dungeoneering/relics is probably the only way anyone who isn't at cap will have a chance at progressing in raids. If that is how you want it to be just go ahead and set the minimum level to enter to 95 instead of this "minimum recommended level 20" business.
 

Halleebell

Squirrel
Characters
Hallee/Freyra
Platform
iOS, PC
I like your idea of having tiers and each tier adding new twists to the runs, and modifiers seem pretty good too. Now to answer the questions.

Do you like Infinite progression?
I care very little about it, if some people want to push as far as the can for bragging rights or just to prove it to themselves, I'm fine with it. If it grants noticeable advantages against others I'd be against it.

Will you progress as far as you can each season?
Most likely no. I'm in it for the rewards and fun gameplay. If some currency is added and higher levels will yield better results I might, but as of now definitely not.

Do the Raids feel as cooperative as Dungeons?
Yes and no. Running anything besides solo does feel like coop, but the player restriction of 6 is too little. I'd prefer a higher cap. Also more coop mechanics.

Do you feel the Raids bring players together or separates them?
I think Dungeons brought them together more. It was all a big family running it together, regardless of skill level and it worked for the most part. I think having the solo option is fine, solo players shouldn't be cut from this content, however there needs to be more incentive to run it with others (like increased rewards). So as of now compared to Dungeons I feel like it separates them more, since no coop is needed to get what you want.

Do you like Relics?
I think relics could be good seasonal progression items, but right now they only increase stats and offer stat breakers. It just feels boring. I'd prefer them to add some new mechanics or extra effects to feats. Maybe even having cursed relics that offer good and bad things at the same time.

Do you like Dungeoneering?
No. I feel like Relics are enough as a sort of Raid only progression. It is also one of the reasons why people can technically run any challenge level granted they farm it long enough, taking away the challenge part. This should be scraped.

Do you think the challenge levels add to the experience?
Until they introduce new mechanics, new routes, new enemies yes. But at some point they just mean more Health and Damage, which will get mitigated by high enough Dungeoneering/Relic levels, taking away the feeling of challenge. I'd very much prefer your proposition to the current system.
This is a bit off topic but not. But why is it that everyone seems to think players should get better rewards for doing group content in raids? I solo 99.9% of the time and did a group run in the woods For the first time. It was much easier then running it solo. I spent wayyyy less resources and it didn’t take me as long as it normally does while soloing. I do think raids need better rewards as you lvl there. But for group content to get better rewards I don’t agree.
 

Dave

Citizen
Platform
PC
This is a bit off topic but not. But why is it that everyone seems to think players should get better rewards for doing group content in raids? I solo 99.9% of the time and did a group run in the woods For the first time. It was much easier then running it solo. I spent wayyyy less resources and it didn’t take me as long as it normally does while soloing. I do think raids need better rewards as you lvl there. But for group content to get better rewards I don’t agree.
I completely agree. Why should they get better rewards, it is much harder to solo the raids at least for some classes.
To progress with raids I have to change my talents, which is 50 gold each time, and get a completely new set of gear. So I spent a lot of gold, sockets and other resources like full heals and resurrects and I'm not even at platinum yet.

Running in groups regularly is not for everyone, since you can only progress if you have a solid group that runs together. With shouting out in world chat it is impossible to get a group together that is good enough to progress.

I have the impression that players that live in a strong and large guild maybe don't realize how hard it is for others to get good groups for 95s or raids. And I'm not willing to leave my lovely guild just because most of them are villagers or just casual players.
 

Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
As it stands right now, I think there is widespread agreement that the rewards for running raids are too low and should be improved. I believe this has in fact always been the intention of the Devs, and that improved rewards including the introduction of ducats and drops within the raid have always been intended as a later addition, but that it was felt important to get the balance right first.

Whether raids are harder for group or solo, it seems to me that the rewards should be the same regardless. Raids are intended to provide a satisfying challenge as optional content for those that want the extra fun and challenge . Some people want the fun and challenge of additional group content, for the others the fun and challenge comes from doing the raids solo, and for still others difficulties of time zone or busy working schedules in rl mean they can only normally run solo like it or not.

No one should feel penalised because of their preferred or perhaps necessary mode of play. The rewards should be the same for all.
 

Dawnfire

Great Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
Athon Dawnfire
Platform
Android, PC
Group content ideally means more mechanics more challenge, since they can implement things that wouldn't be possible for solo (for example having extra roles during a fight and not just standing and dpsing the boss down which is the majority of the things people do solo). Group content not only tests individual skill but also group skills, how they work together, how they communicate, how they empower each other, how they cover for each other's flaws. While solo content is just your test of skill (which is still cool, just less complex). I agree that there shouldn't be exclusive rewards regardless of your playstyle which is how it works right now.

No one should feel penalised because of their preferred or perhaps necessary mode of play. The rewards should be the same for all.
I agree if you mean exclusivity. I disagree otherwise because while it's right that people shouldn't be penalized, you are also saying they shouldn't be rewarded more even if they overcome greater challenges and put in more effort. Please note I'm still talking about the ideal setup of group content and not what we have right now, I'm very much aware that running group raids is easier for most right now, and is not how I'd prefer it to be.
 
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Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
Raids were added with the intention of giving "infinite challenge" to those who said they wanted more challenging content. Having the fun of doing more challenging content, of having true group roles, and of gaining the satisfaction of successfully carrying out those roles and defeating the more difficult raid should be extra reward enough. The tangible rewards should be the same for all who achieve a level 25 raid, whether it be solo or group.

If having the fun and satisfaction of playing through and succeeding in harder raids is not enough in and of itself, then the reality, whether players admit it to themselves or not, is that what they are asking for is exclusive rewards available only to a small group, not challenging content. There is a valid discussion to be had, and valid arguments for having such rewards, and whether that is a direction the game developers wish to go is another matter entirely, but people need to be more open about what they actually want. Right now we have people who have for a long time been saying all they want is challenging content who now that they have exactly that complain that it isn't worth doing because the rewards are not good enough.
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Then probably the current raid isn't challenging enough nor fun enough?
 
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