Helos

Citizen
Characters
Helos, Helox, Malevos
Platform
iOS
I know dev's have a lot on their plate but hear me out...

I get people have complained about ice wiz for a while not having as much damagedamage, or this or that or whatever. But water shaman being rendered ineffective is basically unacceptable. To preface, I am earth on my shaman so it doesn't affect me but I have quite a bit of friends that play water. Keep in mind people play this game to be fun, and to be literally rendered useless by another water shaman is to say, ridiculous. One person cannot have more than 1 water shaman HoT on them at a time from different shaman. So in a sense, lets use two shamans in an EZ. Lets call one Jysmall, and one random B. Jysmall has been playing for a while and has great gear, and is maxed with all rebirths. Random B is a water shaman who's super exited to be in the EZ and leveling, but is only about lvl 30. However due to Jysmall's spell being that much more powerful, Random B's spells are completely over-written by Jysmall.

So although Jysmall is super awesome and helpful, Random B gets to know that he or she has literally done nothing. This also means that when random B gets all decked out, hits 95, and is super excited to help out in high level content, that due to Jysmall having been around longer, had more elder levels and more time to attain gear that Random B is STILL useless. Yes, I understand he can do a few water zappy zappy's or whatever.

Basically I get that certain classes need some balance, but something needs to be done to make this work. I don't have the answer, maybe more than one HoT can be placed by more than one person at a time but seriously, no one should be useless. For a class that is based on HoT, you cant tell them they are functionally obsolete if another water shaman is around. Cool, then we should just have a rotation shift. We will have 7 water shamans for the server total, and each will take 1 day for 24 hours, no sleep!
 
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IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
It might be helpful to get in a party with the lower levels, pull up /charts (which is the combat charts) and look at the amount of damage the lower level is actually doing. It might surprise you.
 
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Helos

Citizen
Characters
Helos, Helox, Malevos
Platform
iOS
It might be helpful to get in a party with the lower levels, pull up /charts (which is the combat charts) and look at the amount of damage the lower level is actually doing. It might surprise you.
A water shamans general purpose is not damage though…. And still multiple 95 water shamans is… useless, except for damage. Again, not their function.
 

Dawnfire

Great Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
Athon Dawnfire
Platform
Android, PC
Last edited
It's quite tricky to "fix". If more HoTs can be placed on a player (like multiple instanves of healing rain/wave) , a group of water shamans will basically make anyone invulnerable. One potential idea is to have target limits introduced, so one cast of a spell cant effect everyone, so another instance of the same spell will prioritize targets without the HoT/Buff. But this might require rebalancing again (and dev time, and I'm not even convinced this is an update anyone would want).

Somethings to note though that this is an EZ situation you are talking about. Many classes/roles share your fate there since often there are multiple instances of each class/roles (some examples, multiple tanks are useless, multiple debuffs from same class (like fury warriors)). In a smaller group setup like 95 elders, rift, raids, you will most likely be the only water shaman and can shine there.

I do emphasize with you though, it does feel unfun and unfair that over time effects get overwritten by others and it can make a water shaman "obsolete". I'm not sure if there is an easy fix to this, I guess the best option is to focus on direct effects in EZ unless there are no other water shamans around.
 
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Ozul

Citizen
Platform
iOS
It seems like a healing nightmare where whatever situation you are in someone is going to be a better healer then the other one. The game is basic in threat and how the AI is only going to attack the most threating out the bunch. So naturally one tank is needed in order to be the most on the threat level. If the tank takes damage then it becomes a case of who gets to heal first, with different variables of builds, stats and glyphs able to be the first healer to count,.
I don’t think the shaman is broken, I feel like it’s the game design of one tank is enough for the game. Obviously there are other mechanics that can do damage to groups, which would mean another healer or two trying to be first to heal them even if they are in the party or not.
Only way to solve this situation is for the game to have an advanced ai that targets multiple players based of off threat. So basically 3 tanks would be needed to take out the boss, since the mobs are gonna attack 2nd and 3rd threat levels of players. This would require more tanks and more healers to be needed to focus on other tanks.
I have a priest that keeps his holy mace in the back pocket for the just in case no healer shows up. Maybe coordinate with the other water shammys on rotating who gets to heal and who doesn’t.
 

Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
When I started playing the game there was a limiting factor on this, which was that over healing generated aggro, so healers that spammed heals would steal aggro from the tank. Since in those days holy priests in particular were also fairly squishy, that usually resulted in the death of the said priest, often followed soon after by the tank and the rest of the party.

Perhaps the time has come to look again at the concept of over healing generating aggro. (My own personal feeling is that it removed all the skill from playing priest, which is why my holy priest is no longer my "main" character and indeed has rarely ventured out since the change.)
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Perhaps the time has come to look again at the concept of over healing generating aggro. (My own personal feeling is that it removed all the skill from playing priest, which is why my holy priest is no longer my "main" character and indeed has rarely ventured out since the change.)
Mine as well
 

Helos

Citizen
Characters
Helos, Helox, Malevos
Platform
iOS
I can agree with the threat stealing portion. That for sure would make the game more interesting. I guess the difference mentioned above of more tanks and whatnot is not as bad in a couple of forms. A tank still can sit and do damage based on the fact that their feats are all damaging. But if a water shaman shows up with 6 healing feats, most of them will be essentially void, unless they are the strongest one in the pack. My reasoning for this is also high level content though. I have seen many a water shaman be discouraged and go earth or some hybrid dps wind, just simply due to being frustrated with not being helpful.

Again, I am not water. But as a tank, and often the one being healed, I like the idea of more healers if that makes sense. There are a lot of factors already working against being a healer (mobile being super hard to heal on, generally slower to level, etc.). I don't think a lot of people always choose a healer specifically, so making even one of them semi obsolete seems bad for the community as a whole.
 
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Jytal

Servant of Mallok
Platform
iOS
Hello, I am Jysmall (the renaming was funny) and there seems to be some misunderstanding of the situation with water shaman heals.

For the full context of the situation where this came up: we were in ladder and as stated, I (Jysmall) am a lv95 water shaman with 5rbs and have been a water shaman since I started playing (I believe 3 years now). A few days before this particular ladder run, water shaman B and I were talking and they have problems making sure they stay alive when they are also healing a tank (separate issue; holy heal themselves when healing others, water do not) so when we were formed the party for the ladder it was Helos (the tank), 2 dps, water shaman B, and me. I told water shaman B to focus on healing themself before Helos so that water shaman B would survive the whole ladder without issues and Helos would still have all the healing he needs and that is because both water shaman B and I are water shamans but only my heals were going to be effective for Helos and others.

Water shaman's healing is a majority through Healing Over Time (HoTs). Here's a full list of Water healing spells:
Healing Rain (rain) - AoE HoT
Healing Wave (wave) - Instant Heal + HoT , instant heal is aoe if have the 20pt ultimate talent Wave Healing
Rejuvenation (rejuv) - Single target HoT
Water Shield - Retaliation Healing (heals when target gets hit by damage)
Swift Waters - single target heal (very strong but 500mana and long cd, only used for emergencies)
Tidal Wave - aoe instant heal (very large aoe but long cd and heal is not that significant)
Cleansing Waters - single target HoT + single target cure

The most important water healing spells are rain, wave, and rejuv, I personally have rain, wave, rejuv, shield, and swift but, swift is only for emergencies, shield has a long cast time and I mainly just use if on myself than the tank, and I do not use tidal wave because it is too weak and impractical.
By using rain, the only aoe hot that water has, I am able to use wave to heal everyone else sufficiently because of wave healing and focus on tank with rejuv and/or cleansing waters. If I do not have rain active my healing is drastically lower because I do not have any other way to get everyone else to have a hot to make use of wave's aoe healing as well.
Now the problems: If there are 2 of the same hot (ie rejuv), the higher level one will take place even if the lower level one was casted afterwards meaning the mana is wasted, level scaling does not remove this problem. If they are the same level, then when the second hot is casted, the first one gets removed regardless of how strong the hots are (due to stats and augmentation runes). This means if there is a higher level, the lower level will automatically always be neglected and can't make use of their healing abilities in their healing role. In the case of the same level then it messes with their healing rotations and not being able use their healing effectively.
And because of those problems, someone like water shaman B can not heal the tank, or anyone else really unless she goes by one by one to use rejuv over and over and over again meaning that the majority of their build is useless. Some people play water shamans to be purely a healer, to tell someone who wants to be a healer to be a dps instead should not be the solution.

Somethings to note though that this is an EZ situation you are talking about. Many classes/roles share your fate there since often there are multiple instances of each class/roles (some examples, multiple tanks are useless, multiple DoTs from same class (like shadow priests, fury warriors)). In a smaller group setup like 95 elders, rift, raids, you will most likely be the only water shaman and can shine there.
I would like to correct part of this statement. Multiple DoTs from the same class (shadow, fury, nature) do not cancel each other nor does it make any nonmax level DoT be nullified just like different level HoTs do. If this were the case you would only see one shadow or nature on the top of the charts and the rest of the shadow and natures would be on the bottom of the charts but in reality we have multiple shadow and nature topping charts. DoTs are instanced and do not null other of the same DoTs from other players.
I would argue multiple tanks are not useless within reason (2 tanks are fine incase one dc or dies etc but having 5 doesn't make sense if the raid is 15 people) but this is an opinion and not a fact like the DoTs are.

My experiences with water shaman in those areas and while leveling:
Leveling/ez - I did not see any water shamans while leveling really, even in ezs I did not see them until I was around 85+ and by this time, I was the higher level water shaman so my healing took effect over theirs. Currently, I have a friend who was a 95 water shaman but has recently changed builds (F1) and another 95 water shaman friend who if we are both in the ez (F2), one of us will change toons. The other water shaman friends I have are not 95 so their builds become useless despite the fact they are both 90+ (F3 and F4) if I am there as well
95 elders - I don't actually do these, they don't interest me but, there are not many 95 water shamans anyways because at this point they typically switch subclass anyways and I have not heard of a case of there being 2 water shamans at a 95 elder run
Rift - I don't run in large groups and the above water friends mentioned above don't run [at this time] so I am the only water
Raids - If I am raiding with F2 or F4, F2 or I will switch toons while if raiding with F4 I will switch, I have not raided with F1 and F3. If it is a pub run sometimes there's no helping it but there might be two water shamans but also means one of them isn't going to be effectively doing what they built to do.
There's a trend here... some of us try to switch toons so that someone else can play what they wanted to play. We shouldn't have to not play what we wanted to play just so that our or someone else's build becomes useless.

This is a problem unique to water shamans, water can not heal if there's another water. Holy has buffs they can give to other dps players with the same skills they can heal the tank and others with, holy also has a few more reliable instant heals. Dps players don't cancel other dps player's dps. Multiple tanks can tank in different scenarios.
I do not believe the solution is to allow water heals to stack like others have said since it will cause too much excess healing which in itself is also useless still, just less useless than it is doing nothing. There is no easy solution to this, to keep wave healing functional then it could be made that instead of just canceling the other hots, it makes one of them on 1 hp per hot tick, that way it allows wave healing but not increase excess healing.
 

Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
It's quite tricky to "fix". If more HoTs can be placed on a player (like multiple instanves of healing rain/wave) , a group of water shamans will basically make anyone invulnerable.
You’re arguing that having two water shaman present could be/would be overkill…so, um, you’re kinda making our point. Hots can be treated exactly like dots, instanced to the caster.

The point is that, by design, and as implemented, HoTs can literally be a waste of mana (costs full mana/full cooldown, hits 30 players, heals for 0 ticks) when you’re 1+1 Water.

Think about it. What would happen if you had two shadow priests, but one couldn’t cast a dot because some other shadow priest has that dot running on the boss? That would be okay? What if it were nature hunters, and their dmg was halved for each one that showed up. Everyone can kinda look at that and agree, that’s not right… but it is that way for water shaman in their primary healing role.
 

Helos

Citizen
Characters
Helos, Helox, Malevos
Platform
iOS
Was wondering when Jysmall would chime in hahahah. I don’t even know why I changed it, shoulda just used your darn names.
 
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Cosmickitty

Bog Frog
Platform
iOS
Aren’t holy the same way? Mass heal, restore,bless, and shield will cancel out any already there.

my favorite is to heal w a water so we can each do our own thing. Maybe water b should heal near holies.
 

Dawnfire

Great Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
Athon Dawnfire
Platform
Android, PC
I would like to correct part of this statement. Multiple DoTs from the same class (shadow, fury, nature) do not cancel each other nor does it make any nonmax level DoT be nullified just like different level HoTs do. If this were the case you would only see one shadow or nature on the top of the charts and the rest of the shadow and natures would be on the bottom of the charts but in reality we have multiple shadow and nature topping charts. DoTs are instanced and do not null other of the same DoTs from other players.
I'm not even sure why I thought it worked the way I wrote it, but alas thank you for correcting it, I've learned something new today :) And also thanks for the deeper insight of the workings of spells/feats.

We shouldn't have to not play what we wanted to play just so that our or someone else's build becomes useless.
This is so true, and really should be a cornerstone of class design philosophy.
 
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Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
Last edited
I'm not even sure why I thought it worked the way I wrote it, but alas thank you for correcting it, I've learned something new today :) And also thanks for the deeper insight of the workings of spells/feats.
snip
All over time efects used to work the way you described. DoTs were changed a while back, perhaps HoT effects should also (though I still think the real solution is to bring back the aggro for over healing).
 

Jytal

Servant of Mallok
Platform
iOS
Aren’t holy the same way? Mass heal, restore,bless, and shield will cancel out any already there.

my favorite is to heal w a water so we can each do our own thing. Maybe water b should heal near holies.
Similar but not the same, the hots work the same but holy are not reliant on the fact of having one of their spells needing to be active to make use of another (having rain active to make use of wave healing). Without hot healing, water does not have any reliable instant healing they can use. Holy have heal (can also use just to proc ardor), bless (the heal portion works regardless of the defense buff being canceled), mass cure (aoe instant heal), and if they use restore they can still be useful by proccing divine inspiration.

I agree that it is best when you have both holy and water to heal together but that isn’t relevant to having water cancel water. If there’s a water and a holy it’s great, if there’s a water and two holy it’s still great, if there’s two water and one holy there’s someone’s build being made useless.

perhaps HoT effects should also (though I still think the real solution is to bring back the aggro for over healing).
May you explain how the solution is to make excess healing to generate threat?
If Jysmall in this scenario avoids using rain wave combo to heal aoe and only uses what’s necessary to lower excess healing, what is water shaman B doing? Their same hot they would’ve used would still be canceled from Jysmall.

The only way I can see the excess healing generating threat being a solution to the water shaman problem is by also changing hots not to cancel each either similar to dots but, it requires both changes it is not one or the other.
And at that point I believe the classes and talent trees should be updated to be more diverse and work better with other mechanics. Ie if excess heal generates threat, water shaman shouldn’t be reliant on aoe hot to proc aoe healings nor should their ultimate talent living water increase aoe healing so much that it would instantly get aggro (or just nerf hybrid shamans instead of other classes instead).
 
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Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
Last edited
snip


May you explain how the solution is to make excess healing to generate threat?
If Jysmall in this scenario avoids using rain wave combo to heal aoe and only uses what’s necessary to lower excess healing, what is water shaman B doing? Their same hot they would’ve used would still be canceled from Jysmall.

The only way I can see the excess healing generating threat being a solution to the water shaman problem is by also changing hots not to cancel each either similar to dots but, it requires both changes it is not one or the other.
And at that point I believe the classes and talent trees should be updated to be more diverse and work better with other mechanics. Ie if excess heal generates threat, water shaman shouldn’t be reliant on aoe hot to proc aoe healings nor should their ultimate talent living water increase aoe healing so much that it would instantly get aggro (or just nerf hybrid shamans instead of other classes instead).
If excess healing generated threat, and that got your character killed, healers would be less likely to simply heal on rotation but would heal only when it was actually needed. So the healer with the stronger heals wouldn't be constantly healing, even when it wasn't needed, and either of the two would be equally able to heal as and when required. Indeed, in the case of HoTs keeping the tank topped up, the lower healer can probably actually do more, since they will be able to use their smaller heals more often. (For example, and using random numbers , if one healer heals for 500, another for 250, the 500 char will overheal if the tank 's health is being hit for 300, whilst the lower healer can be effective.)

I do agree this would probably need to be in conjunction with fixing the issue of heals being over written - it also would only work if healers were actually squishy enough to suffer from generating threat and stealing aggro.
 

Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
A world in which ‘over-heal generates agro’ is a world without riptide. :evil grin: #mikedrop
 

Cosmickitty

Bog Frog
Platform
iOS
Similar but not the same, the hots work the same but holy are not reliant on the fact of having one of their spells needing to be active to make use of another (having rain active to make use of wave healing). Without hot healing, water does not have any reliable instant healing they can use. Holy have heal (can also use just to proc ardor), bless (the heal portion works regardless of the defense buff being canceled), mass cure (aoe instant heal), and if they use restore they can still be useful by proccing divine inspiration.
i can see the reason they can cancel each other out, you don’t want your raid to have multiple hots going at the same time, maybe the best answer is for your abilities to proc off any rain, not only your own?
I think I’ve read other issues with rain where non-healer shaman use it and mess up the healer
 

Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
i can see the reason they can cancel each other out, you don’t want your raid to have multiple hots going at the same time, maybe the best answer is for your abilities to proc off any rain, not only your own?
With most of their healing coming from hots that require time to tick, the Water Shaman’s primary healing challenge is with handling incoming spike damage (if you ignore ‘having to single-target solo cure 15 people while running to the next boss’ and the heal targeting problems shared with priest; namely, the scrolling group window, and pets being the primary ‘cycle target’ target).

Attune-to-Water’s heal component is a water shaman’s only aoe spike healing ability. A Shaman can’t Attune some other shaman’s hots (only his own), and if two water shaman can’t place hots on the same target… then one of the shaman also loses their only spike heal because another water shaman is present.
 

Helos

Citizen
Characters
Helos, Helox, Malevos
Platform
iOS
I would also say they have "Swift Waters" but I don't know anyone that uses it due to its ridiculous mana cost and lack of viability.
 
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