sirbabbo
Guest
Celebron.
Hunter
Characters
Tirius, Celebron, Arekan
Platform
- iOS
- PC
And another thing that I forgot to say. If that 8hr per day is correct, anyone who is going to for platinum is going to have to run the majority of it solo. Few people are even going to attempt platinum, so you'll have to find someone else who is attempting on your server. Then you'll have to be in the same time zone, if you have a full time job, because if one person lives on the west coast and one of the east then there will be a three hour gap when one person is working and the other is not. Also, if you decided to not do it with a set group beforehand it will make it impossible, because, from experience, finding people for raids is impossible. If I waited sometimes an hour to get 3 people for a level 10 rook raid, how will you expect to get a group for, let's say a level 45 raid. It would take a super long time. I genuinely feel very bad for anyone that is going to go for platinum, and encourage you to focus on real life instead. I know it's kind of besides the point and not relevant to the argument, but playing a videogame intensively, not afk, for 8 hours a day every day for 90 days is not a healthy or smart choice.
Littlenymph
Squirrel
Characters
Layla Littlenymph
Platform
- PC
- Steam
"Augmented feats will now have the bonus fully applied when used."
Thank You!
Thank You! 
Last edited
I think a lot of good ideas and insights have been made in this topic. Before I share my own, I'd like to add that we do not know if it will take 8 hours a day for 90 days to reach platinum, nor do we know if the season will last for 3 months. What is clear is that it will take a considerable amount of effort and time. Afaik Platinum was meant for a small percentage of dedicated players and thus why we see this heavy grind. Now on to the main point, here's how I imagine raids should be in the future (some ideas I borrowed from others):
1) Raid seasons are removed, raid progression is now permanent. This is good for both player and developers. Players don't lose their progress, don't have to redo the same raids every season, and also they are not restricted by a timer to earn rewards. Developers don't remove their content from the game, and don't need to develop multiple new raids each season (this was the plan afaik, to reshuffle a few and add a few new ones each season). They will simply add new raids on top of the current ones, offering a lot more content altogether. This also means new players won't miss out on certain raids, nor on rewards (read below).
2) Raid scaling is mostly removed, instead we will have tiers. Simply put we'll have 5 raid tiers. Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Heroic (Platinum+). Each higher tier will offer new areas, new encounters and new mechanics, except for Heroic which will be the same as Platinum but will have the current scaling system built into it, so you can play until infinity. Heroic will be the leaderboard, bragging rights tier for those who enjoy such. This change will make each tier unique while also not dividing the playerbase too much, which is the case with the current scaling system, and it will also offer noticeable difference between each tier in complexity, allowing every player to find the tier they are comfortable with.
3) Rewards are tied to raids and raid tiers. So instead of seasonal rewards, each raid will have its own rewards sold by the raid vendor for ducats. New rewards are unlocked upon completing a new tier of difficulty. For example: completing bronze rookery will offer a banshee toy being sold, completing bronze cloister will offer a ghost toy being sold, while completing a gold red palace will allow you to buy a unique mount, or a platinum rookery will offer a unique nameplate. So each raid in each tier will offer a unqiue reward for ducats only available there. This way you can gradually progress through each and earn the rewards you want at your own pace. Ultimately just like with the Zombie mount in Blighted Isles, there could be a unique vendor with unique items for those who unlocked all rewards in raids.
4) Better item drops. Each raid tier will have its own item drop table. Higher tiers will offer better quality drops. At the end of each raid the game should roll an item from its drop table, so you are never leaving empty handed. This should also somewhat offset the heavy resource investment raids require. And this should also bring back a feature lost with dungeons -> a proper way to earn epic gear consistently.
-Bronze: Uncommon: 45% - Rare: 50% - Epic: 5%
- Silver: Uncommon: 10% - Rare: 70% - Epic: 20%
- Gold: Rare: 30% - Epic: 65% - Legendary: 5%
- Platinum/Heroic: Epic: 80% - Legendary: 20%
Numbers can change, it's just a rough idea.
5) Epic armaments are added to raid vendors. Ducat vendors will now sell epic armaments. Each raid vendor should offer one for a different gear slot. This will be another good way to get more epic gear, and will help those who can't do higher tiers for more consistent epics yet.
6) Relics are permanent. You worked for them, you deserve to keep them. With more and more added it should offer another fun depth for players. Maybe even have some that will make certain raid encounters easier adding a strategic depth to it.
7) Daily and weekly ducat earnings now recieve a multiplier based on the tier they were done in. Current numbers should be the baseline in Bronze tier. Silver will be +25%, Gold +50%, Platinum/Heroic +75%. This way doing them in higher tier will yield better rewards for the extra effort you put into them. Also with many new rewards added to ducat vendors earning more is a welcome change.
8) Solo and Group mode. Instead of the current setup, there should only be 2 modes. Solo is for one player, it will have a bit less mechanics overall. Group is up to 15 players, and will scale to player number (and raid difficulty). No longer you will be required to leave a friend behind or try a 6 man raid with only 4 person and face a challenge meant for 6. This system along with the tier system should make it very easy to start raid runs.
9) Dungeoneering is removed. With dungeoneering you can basically never hit a true hard wall. You just gotta grind until you move past it. With dungeoneering gone, progression will be gear, relic, class and encounter based knowledge. Platinum should never become trivial like this, and Heroic will truly become the ultimate test of knowledge and skill.
1) Raid seasons are removed, raid progression is now permanent. This is good for both player and developers. Players don't lose their progress, don't have to redo the same raids every season, and also they are not restricted by a timer to earn rewards. Developers don't remove their content from the game, and don't need to develop multiple new raids each season (this was the plan afaik, to reshuffle a few and add a few new ones each season). They will simply add new raids on top of the current ones, offering a lot more content altogether. This also means new players won't miss out on certain raids, nor on rewards (read below).
2) Raid scaling is mostly removed, instead we will have tiers. Simply put we'll have 5 raid tiers. Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Heroic (Platinum+). Each higher tier will offer new areas, new encounters and new mechanics, except for Heroic which will be the same as Platinum but will have the current scaling system built into it, so you can play until infinity. Heroic will be the leaderboard, bragging rights tier for those who enjoy such. This change will make each tier unique while also not dividing the playerbase too much, which is the case with the current scaling system, and it will also offer noticeable difference between each tier in complexity, allowing every player to find the tier they are comfortable with.
3) Rewards are tied to raids and raid tiers. So instead of seasonal rewards, each raid will have its own rewards sold by the raid vendor for ducats. New rewards are unlocked upon completing a new tier of difficulty. For example: completing bronze rookery will offer a banshee toy being sold, completing bronze cloister will offer a ghost toy being sold, while completing a gold red palace will allow you to buy a unique mount, or a platinum rookery will offer a unique nameplate. So each raid in each tier will offer a unqiue reward for ducats only available there. This way you can gradually progress through each and earn the rewards you want at your own pace. Ultimately just like with the Zombie mount in Blighted Isles, there could be a unique vendor with unique items for those who unlocked all rewards in raids.
4) Better item drops. Each raid tier will have its own item drop table. Higher tiers will offer better quality drops. At the end of each raid the game should roll an item from its drop table, so you are never leaving empty handed. This should also somewhat offset the heavy resource investment raids require. And this should also bring back a feature lost with dungeons -> a proper way to earn epic gear consistently.
-Bronze: Uncommon: 45% - Rare: 50% - Epic: 5%
- Silver: Uncommon: 10% - Rare: 70% - Epic: 20%
- Gold: Rare: 30% - Epic: 65% - Legendary: 5%
- Platinum/Heroic: Epic: 80% - Legendary: 20%
Numbers can change, it's just a rough idea.
5) Epic armaments are added to raid vendors. Ducat vendors will now sell epic armaments. Each raid vendor should offer one for a different gear slot. This will be another good way to get more epic gear, and will help those who can't do higher tiers for more consistent epics yet.
6) Relics are permanent. You worked for them, you deserve to keep them. With more and more added it should offer another fun depth for players. Maybe even have some that will make certain raid encounters easier adding a strategic depth to it.
7) Daily and weekly ducat earnings now recieve a multiplier based on the tier they were done in. Current numbers should be the baseline in Bronze tier. Silver will be +25%, Gold +50%, Platinum/Heroic +75%. This way doing them in higher tier will yield better rewards for the extra effort you put into them. Also with many new rewards added to ducat vendors earning more is a welcome change.
8) Solo and Group mode. Instead of the current setup, there should only be 2 modes. Solo is for one player, it will have a bit less mechanics overall. Group is up to 15 players, and will scale to player number (and raid difficulty). No longer you will be required to leave a friend behind or try a 6 man raid with only 4 person and face a challenge meant for 6. This system along with the tier system should make it very easy to start raid runs.
9) Dungeoneering is removed. With dungeoneering you can basically never hit a true hard wall. You just gotta grind until you move past it. With dungeoneering gone, progression will be gear, relic, class and encounter based knowledge. Platinum should never become trivial like this, and Heroic will truly become the ultimate test of knowledge and skill.
Xloui
Reader
Characters
Aloui Bloui Cloui DeLoui
Platform
- iOS
- PC
If you remove dungeoneering there will be lots of players who will never stand a chance getting past bronze or fill in accordingly. I would much prefer if some way to get up higher through grind stayed (because that seems to be the only way to actually get to the better rewards)
I am largely in agreement with pretty much everything suggested here, except tfor the final point about dungeoneering.
I can see no reason to remove dungeoneering except to make the highest levels of raids inaccessible to all but the "most skilled" players, and I can see no good reason for doing that.
Anthem
Bog Frog
Platform
- PC
I kinda thought that the point of Raids was to have something for the "most skilled" players that gave them a challenge.
I think dungeoneering level is bad for scaled group content just because it contradict the purpose of scaled content in the first place. The purpose of scaled content is to lessen the gap between player, so player across all level can have fun together regardless of level. Dungeoneering level kinda increase that gap back. Like if you have level 40 dungeoneering level and then run with someone that have level 5 dungeoneering level, it kinda goes back like just a level 95 helping a level 75 doing elders, not a content where both can contribute as equal as possible.
And I thought the purpose of raids was to give every player a challenge.
Anthem
Bog Frog
Platform
- PC
The way I play everything is a challenge.
In truth, I thought the Raids were added for the ones who wanted more of a challenge. For me, they are the "skilled ones".
In truth, I thought the Raids were added for the ones who wanted more of a challenge. For me, they are the "skilled ones".
As Giruv already put it, dungeoneering is not a catch up mechanic but an additional gap creater. But to point out a few flaws with it, dungeoneering is bad because:
1) Waters down difficulty. While at lower dungeoneering and raid levels it's not noticeable, it will certainly become impactful at higher levels. If you can increase your power till infinity no content will be challenging, and platinum will become bronze tier just with higher numbers and a bit more mechanics.
2) Creates an additional gap between casual and hardcore, new and old time players. Those who have been playing for a while, and those who spend more time playing will have a big advantage over those who don't. There's already enough gap to cross, with proper gear and proper class/encounter knowledge, I don't think we need an additional system for that. With current system it's kind okay since it resets each season but taking my own suggestion as a base that is permanent without seasons, I don't think dungeoneering has a place.
3) Hard to balance. Without soft/hard cap it will become a nightmare to balance. What dungeoneering level would you balance gold tier at? Or platinum tier? If you balance it too low higher tiers won't be that challenging. If you balance it too high we are just back to square one, where people will need to grind tons to just beat higher tiers (which is not what I'd like to see).
And that is excatly what a 4 tier difficulty scaling would do. Everyone would find the tier they feel challenged and can improve their game from there if they wish to. They'll have access to gear to help them improve their builds. The tools will be given everyone to complete platinum, it will be up to them to put in the work to achieve them. But I don't want it to be just a mindless grind until your dungeoneering is so high you hardly take damage and deal so much. Balancing is a lot easier without it, and it creates a much fairer playing field.
1) Waters down difficulty. While at lower dungeoneering and raid levels it's not noticeable, it will certainly become impactful at higher levels. If you can increase your power till infinity no content will be challenging, and platinum will become bronze tier just with higher numbers and a bit more mechanics.
2) Creates an additional gap between casual and hardcore, new and old time players. Those who have been playing for a while, and those who spend more time playing will have a big advantage over those who don't. There's already enough gap to cross, with proper gear and proper class/encounter knowledge, I don't think we need an additional system for that. With current system it's kind okay since it resets each season but taking my own suggestion as a base that is permanent without seasons, I don't think dungeoneering has a place.
3) Hard to balance. Without soft/hard cap it will become a nightmare to balance. What dungeoneering level would you balance gold tier at? Or platinum tier? If you balance it too low higher tiers won't be that challenging. If you balance it too high we are just back to square one, where people will need to grind tons to just beat higher tiers (which is not what I'd like to see).
And that is excatly what a 4 tier difficulty scaling would do. Everyone would find the tier they feel challenged and can improve their game from there if they wish to. They'll have access to gear to help them improve their builds. The tools will be given everyone to complete platinum, it will be up to them to put in the work to achieve them. But I don't want it to be just a mindless grind until your dungeoneering is so high you hardly take damage and deal so much. Balancing is a lot easier without it, and it creates a much fairer playing field.
Well, as I mentioned I actually agree with the tiered system.
What I do not see is why the dungeoneering, which allows those less "skilled" players to achieve by effort what others seemingly achieve by natural brilliance, has to be removed.
Waters down difficulty - how exactly is this an issue? Those who want challenge simply move to the next level without grinding to improve their dungeoneering whilst us lesser mortals work on improving our dungeoneering until we have "watered down" the difficulty to what we can manage.
Creates an additional gap between casual and hardcore, new and old players - indeed, it may create an additional gap on top of the already considerable gap created by elder levels. The only difference is elder levels are already permanent, and unlike dungeoneering, new players can't even begin to accumulate them until they cap after five rebirths. (Yes, of course they could just rush to cap without any rebirths, but then they would have a 25 point talent gap to overcome instead.)
Hard to balance - again the same could be said (only more so) of elder levels and rebirths. And again, the only real difference is dungeoneering can be obtained more easily by new players wanting to catch up.
What I do not see is why the dungeoneering, which allows those less "skilled" players to achieve by effort what others seemingly achieve by natural brilliance, has to be removed.
Waters down difficulty - how exactly is this an issue? Those who want challenge simply move to the next level without grinding to improve their dungeoneering whilst us lesser mortals work on improving our dungeoneering until we have "watered down" the difficulty to what we can manage.
Creates an additional gap between casual and hardcore, new and old players - indeed, it may create an additional gap on top of the already considerable gap created by elder levels. The only difference is elder levels are already permanent, and unlike dungeoneering, new players can't even begin to accumulate them until they cap after five rebirths. (Yes, of course they could just rush to cap without any rebirths, but then they would have a 25 point talent gap to overcome instead.)
Hard to balance - again the same could be said (only more so) of elder levels and rebirths. And again, the only real difference is dungeoneering can be obtained more easily by new players wanting to catch up.
Celebron.
Hunter
Characters
Tirius, Celebron, Arekan
Platform
- iOS
- PC
But it isn't for the most skilled, its for those who have the most time. The entire dungeoneering system works that way, you get more powerful the more times you raid. It doesn't matter how skilled you are, if your dungeneering is low then you will be uneffective at high raid tiers/levels. Raids are just a grind, which is, yes, a challenge, but not the kind that most people want. The challenge that most people want is something like getting gold in the old dungeon system, which required teamwork and coordination. Not simply running the same thing over and over again.
Celebron.
Hunter
Characters
Tirius, Celebron, Arekan
Platform
- iOS
- PC
It's not like dungeoneering is only required for those without skill, its required for everyone. First of all, raids are significantly more stat based than skill based. It doesn't matter how good you are at raiding, you still need really high stats. I don't like the dungeoneering system because it took all the skill out of the leaderboards. I'm not sure how much you raided last season, but success in raids was almost entirely dependent on relic levels, which were raised by runnning raids multiple times successfully. Dungeoneering doesn't balance the system because it isn't optional, especially for those who aren't capped. I ran raids at 91 and still needed to repeat levels often to raise my relics. I think dungeoneering simply covers up the poor balancing of the raids for different classes and skill levels.
Lord Odenhawk 72
Hunter
Characters
Tiffa, Kitty Witch
Platform
- Android
- PC
To all the Raid Doomsayers and other people who Don't like the Current Raid System this: Go learn Coding, design and create your own game with the gaming mechanics that you want and see if you you can please everyone. This is impossible to do, because everyone wants different things. It's too late to change them before the new update comes on-line, but the Otters can still make changes to them as time goes on and they get the Hard data that they need. Play the game and give the Otters some slack and let them make the adjustments that will please the majority of the players, and still meat their vision of the game. Give the Raids a try and you may still feel the same, or just maybe you will be surprised an like them.
Ildranach
Squirrel
Platform
- Android
- PC
Quoting for truth. Certain classes are rewarded for building in their role (healers, tanks) and also rewarded for dipping into offrole (damage).
Other classes are punished for building their stated role ;many dps classes had to dip deep into tank stats to survive certain raids.
Classes with in-built aoe had a much easier time than classes that were naturally more single-target oriented.
Classes without sustain basically got dumpstered in certain raids, especially if their sustain requires them to deal damage.
Ildranach
Squirrel
Platform
- Android
- PC
Most of us 'doomsayers' have played raids in Season 1. It doesn't sound like the mechanics in the raids are changing. We are giving our honest feedback given what we know. We all care deeply for the game, otherwise we wouldn't be spending time writing these elaborate forum posts. It's incredibly demeaning for you to tell us to code our own game when we are trying to give feedback in an attempt to make the game better for all. Criticism is extremely important in the iteration process, because without it how will you know if your design goals are met? You may have intended one thing, but your players may have interpreted something else entirely.
Testers and players test the game. They have an opinion about it, and submit their opinions. There is no point in having testers if the feedback is just going to get ignored or dismissed. That will frustrate testers and players alike and may even drive them away from investing their time.
Yes, it's impossible to please everyone, but if you'll notice the pattern in this thread, most of us are in agreement that something needs to change, and that should tell you something.
Halleebell
Squirrel
Characters
Hallee/Freyra
Platform
- iOS
- PC
It’s not about not liking the raids. There are aspects that are positive and there are aspects that are negative. Like estimating only 1% of the player base will make it to platinum. That can’t be categorized as pleasing everyone or trying to. It’s only pleasing 1% roughly. I’m going off the number Ivar said. If there’s 500 95 players which are the ones who would most likely make it to platinum and all of them are striving for platinum then about 5 players roughly would make it to that last bracket. I’m sorry but that’s a pretty big problem. One that should be voiced. Looked at and considered. Did we aim to high?... should more players be able to achieve this? And again I’m not saying everyone should be able too....
Have they said each season will last 3 months, no. But considering that we haven’t been given information at what they are thinking along the lines of each season one would think a season is well a fall/spring/winter/summer and from the last raid season it kinda falls in line with that. When looking at the game basically everything is achievable some things take more work. But you’ll get there. I understand why They’d want to make this more difficult to achieve but I think they’re reaching to high and leaving out far to many players and it’s to the point where it’s unrealistic.
Lord Odenhawk 72
Hunter
Characters
Tiffa, Kitty Witch
Platform
- Android
- PC
I understand where you are coming from, but you still seem to miss the point that this session of Raids is STILL IN TESTING and not finalized, nothing is set in stone as of yet and the Otters probably may change the numbers of completed raids to reach certain levels. They may lower bronze to 5 levels but make up the difference on Platinum. We don't know what will happen until they get the data that they need. If a mass majority of players never make it past silver, they may adjust the difficulty of the levels and/or decrease the number of levels needed to change ranks. The dungeons were on constant adjustment the 2 years that I played them. First they were a challenge then were to easy, then way too hard, then almost back to a great challenge before they were removed for raids.
The Point is Wait, play them, and give honest feedback about them. The devs have to make the game enjoyable to the Majority of players, not just a few.