Casti

Grand Priestess
Characters
Aria Aeris
Platform
Android, PC
Yeah, 50 raids for bronze is too much, unless bronze reward is better than platinum from last season. Last season we did 60 raids for a toy, a mount and nameplate stuff, and it was still a massive challenge for a lot of high level players to even get to 30 raids.

But for me thats still a side issue, they are one time only rewards that shouldn't be the reason players do raids. the rank rewards are not the elephant in the room, that elephant is the rewards you get after you kill the raid boss, when you finish it. Back when we had dungeons, 15 minutes spent inside rewarded you with: 1 Guaranteed epic item +Around 30g, and that was considered a so so reward, not enough to move many people.

But there were still people farming dungeons all day long and enjoying it, why? Because of the guaranteed epic gear each time you finished it. People didn't farm dungeons because of a single time reward, because after you get it, you don't come back again, they farmed it for the gear. Raids don't provide guaranteed epic gear like dungeons did, so we are still worse off. Raids are more entertaining but still less rewarding than the dungeons that weren't considered rewarding. Solution: Add gear rewards to every single raid finished that at some specific raid level becomes guaranteed epics and eventually has a chance, but not guaranteed, to be legendary. And you'll have players playing raids all day long and the rank rewards will become optional rewards like you want to, for now rank rewards aren't optional, they are the only reward.
 

Halleebell

Squirrel
Characters
Hallee/Freyra
Platform
iOS, PC
Let me preface this by saying that I really do appreciate all the hard work that the Otters do with regards to making the game fun and interesting. I appreciate you engaging with us and also the testers in the effort to make content that's good for everyone.

However... this raid update misses the mark. Or, in particular, the decision to move the tiers to higher numbers.

In my opinion, there's a balance of fun vs grind vs reward in games.
Fun can be had by interesting mechanics, challenge, teamplay, any number of things that a player might enjoy in a certain piece of content.
Grind reduces that fun by requiring the player to repeat it for progress, meaning the interesting mechanics become rote and said content becomes boring/chore-like over time. Or, the content is too challenging and players are forced to repeat previous levels in order to progress, discouraging players from further engaging with said content.
Reward counteracts grind by encouraging the player to push through when the player isn't experiencing as much fun as previously, or to encourage them to pick up the piece of content in the first place, despite the challenge.
In my view, the problem with raids in this season is that there is too much grind compared to the amount of fun or rewards offered for the average player, and you may see much less player engagement than you would expect for a major patch like this one.


A lot of players run the event zone for rewards. Is it challenging? No. It is fairly rote once you have run them a couple of times. Is it fun? Arguably the fun comes from the rewards you can get, which are a lot more permanent/impactful than, say, relics that reset each season.
There are a lot more players who run the event zones than raids because there is pick-up-group teamplay, you aren't restricted to certain team setups or group numbers, and the rewards are much more granular than those of raids' tiered rewards. You can pick it up one day, drop it the next, go for the little toys or the big mounts. There is something for everyone, and a lot of opportunities to make new friends, build community, etc.
You don't need a whole lot of resources to run event zones, and the zones themselves often help to provide the resources for those who do need it.

Raids, in comparison, are a resource sink. You're locked into certain group comps, certain group numbers, and are forced to do things a certain way or risk failing/running out of time. There's plenty of challenge (perhaps too much at certain levels for certain classes) and the rewards reset each season except for the tiered cosmetic ones and whatever drops happen.

In season 1, the players who were able to get ahead were largely disincentivized from helping their less experienced counterparts, as they were not able to get much progress (if any at all) by helping their friends run lower tiers. This segregates the playerbase in a way that event zones and dungeons did not. Raising the number required for each tier is only going to exacerbate that division and fragment the community between the platinum chasers and the barely bronze.


A flat increase in the amount of time needed to get to each tier of reward does not 'challenge' make. It just increases the grind. The challenge is not in the content, but the will to slog through. If this season is anything like the previous season, the challenge increases sharply at certain challenge levels, but otherwise it is a flat slope that goes up through stat inflation in both player and raid. It only requires greater degrees of strategy as far as new mechanics are introduced; rest of it is just grinding and hoping you don't get hit with an unfavorable affix.


I'd actually go as far as to say that it is not a matter of trying or not trying.
Let's do some napkin math here.
5 raids x 50 successful completions = 250 raids run, at bare minimum.
Let's say you fail one raid for every one you complete (or have to re-run a previous raid for dungeoneering levels).
This is quite likely at higher challenge levels, so let's double that number to 500 raids. (Still a conservative estimate, since previous seasons saw players repeat certain levels much more than twice... it's more like 4/5 times later on, if not higher.)
500 raids x 30 minutes per raid (accounting for party-making, resource collecting etc) = 15000 minutes, or 750 hours.
That works out to about 8 hours a day in a 90 day season: equivalent to a full time job.
Assuming you are some sort of genius hardcore gamer and somehow don't fail anything at all, it'd still be 4h per day, which is quite frankly a ridiculous amount of time for people who have IRL obligations.
Bronze tier only? About 150 hours, or about 2 hours a day.
Casual raiders won't even be able to touch tier 1 in a 3 month season. Not even tier 1.
If the barrier is that high, it discourages people from even trying. I know I'll probably be sticking to the villaging side this patch.


Relics reset each season as you've mentioned previously. I won't comment on item drops/gold/xp since I don't know how that scales yet and if it is a viable alternative to leveling via bounties, but from the previous posts on this thread it is looking like a straight port from bounties. Which... why not just do bounties? Those don't kick you out of the map on a timer.
It is not fair to compare the rewards to season 1 since season 1 was technically a beta and rewards were flattened for that reason.
Well said!
 

Lyrra

Huntress
Characters
Lyrra, Lythe, Livelie, Chicken Little, xFURIx
Platform
iOS, Android
Let me preface this by saying that I really do appreciate all the hard work that the Otters do with regards to making the game fun and interesting. I appreciate you engaging with us and also the testers in the effort to make content that's good for everyone.

However... this raid update misses the mark. Or, in particular, the decision to move the tiers to higher numbers.

In my opinion, there's a balance of fun vs grind vs reward in games.
Fun can be had by interesting mechanics, challenge, teamplay, any number of things that a player might enjoy in a certain piece of content.
Grind reduces that fun by requiring the player to repeat it for progress, meaning the interesting mechanics become rote and said content becomes boring/chore-like over time. Or, the content is too challenging and players are forced to repeat previous levels in order to progress, discouraging players from further engaging with said content.
Reward counteracts grind by encouraging the player to push through when the player isn't experiencing as much fun as previously, or to encourage them to pick up the piece of content in the first place, despite the challenge.
In my view, the problem with raids in this season is that there is too much grind compared to the amount of fun or rewards offered for the average player, and you may see much less player engagement than you would expect for a major patch like this one.


A lot of players run the event zone for rewards. Is it challenging? No. It is fairly rote once you have run them a couple of times. Is it fun? Arguably the fun comes from the rewards you can get, which are a lot more permanent/impactful than, say, relics that reset each season.
There are a lot more players who run the event zones than raids because there is pick-up-group teamplay, you aren't restricted to certain team setups or group numbers, and the rewards are much more granular than those of raids' tiered rewards. You can pick it up one day, drop it the next, go for the little toys or the big mounts. There is something for everyone, and a lot of opportunities to make new friends, build community, etc.
You don't need a whole lot of resources to run event zones, and the zones themselves often help to provide the resources for those who do need it.

Raids, in comparison, are a resource sink. You're locked into certain group comps, certain group numbers, and are forced to do things a certain way or risk failing/running out of time. There's plenty of challenge (perhaps too much at certain levels for certain classes) and the rewards reset each season except for the tiered cosmetic ones and whatever drops happen.

In season 1, the players who were able to get ahead were largely disincentivized from helping their less experienced counterparts, as they were not able to get much progress (if any at all) by helping their friends run lower tiers. This segregates the playerbase in a way that event zones and dungeons did not. Raising the number required for each tier is only going to exacerbate that division and fragment the community between the platinum chasers and the barely bronze.


A flat increase in the amount of time needed to get to each tier of reward does not 'challenge' make. It just increases the grind. The challenge is not in the content, but the will to slog through. If this season is anything like the previous season, the challenge increases sharply at certain challenge levels, but otherwise it is a flat slope that goes up through stat inflation in both player and raid. It only requires greater degrees of strategy as far as new mechanics are introduced; rest of it is just grinding and hoping you don't get hit with an unfavorable affix.


I'd actually go as far as to say that it is not a matter of trying or not trying.
Let's do some napkin math here.
5 raids x 50 successful completions = 250 raids run, at bare minimum.
Let's say you fail one raid for every one you complete (or have to re-run a previous raid for dungeoneering levels).
This is quite likely at higher challenge levels, so let's double that number to 500 raids. (Still a conservative estimate, since previous seasons saw players repeat certain levels much more than twice... it's more like 4/5 times later on, if not higher.)
500 raids x 30 minutes per raid (accounting for party-making, resource collecting etc) = 15000 minutes, or 750 hours.
That works out to about 8 hours a day in a 90 day season: equivalent to a full time job.
Assuming you are some sort of genius hardcore gamer and somehow don't fail anything at all, it'd still be 4h per day, which is quite frankly a ridiculous amount of time for people who have IRL obligations.
Bronze tier only? About 150 hours, or about 2 hours a day.
Casual raiders won't even be able to touch tier 1 in a 3 month season. Not even tier 1.
If the barrier is that high, it discourages people from even trying. I know I'll probably be sticking to the villaging side this patch.


Relics reset each season as you've mentioned previously. I won't comment on item drops/gold/xp since I don't know how that scales yet and if it is a viable alternative to leveling via bounties, but from the previous posts on this thread it is looking like a straight port from bounties. Which... why not just do bounties? Those don't kick you out of the map on a timer.
It is not fair to compare the rewards to season 1 since season 1 was technically a beta and rewards were flattened for that reason.
Well said!
 
Reactions: Sumi
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Characters
Tiffa, Kitty Witch
Platform
Android, PC
Mainly all I'm seeing in this thread is "Grinding is Bad give me everything for no effort on my part" . All of these players must have used Cheat codes to max out their characters and beat the games as quickly as possible, so they could do it again and again on other games and not enjoying the storyline of the games they play.
As a LONG time player of many RPG games (D&D, AD&D, D&D v3.0, v3.5, v4.0 & V5.0 and many more) the grind is never as bad as you think it is. I have a Lv 90 MM hunter with 4 Rebirths, I love the story of the game and while not a speed runner, I enjoy the grind, because I would still be grinding after I max out my character, while waiting for new end game content.
STOP complaining about some thing you have not even played as of yet, you may just find it more enjoyable than you think, or it may be worst than you think.
 

Ildranach

Squirrel
Platform
Android, PC
Mainly all I'm seeing in this thread is "Grinding is Bad give me everything for no effort on my part" . All of these players must have used Cheat codes to max out their characters and beat the games as quickly as possible, so they could do it again and again on other games and not enjoying the storyline of the games they play.
As a LONG time player of many RPG games (D&D, AD&D, D&D v3.0, v3.5, v4.0 & V5.0 and many more) the grind is never as bad as you think it is. I have a Lv 90 MM hunter with 4 Rebirths, I love the story of the game and while not a speed runner, I enjoy the grind, because I would still be grinding after I max out my character, while waiting for new end game content.
STOP complaining about some thing you have not even played as of yet, you may just find it more enjoyable than you think, or it may be worst than you think.
Tiffa, I hardly think 8h a day for 90 days straight with no weekends and no breaks is a reasonable grind, having played many grind-for-progress RPGs myself.
And I would agree, you haven't played it yet either, and I am not sure if you raided in season 1, so I am not sure how you can say with confidence that it isn't a grind.
 

Halleebell

Squirrel
Characters
Hallee/Freyra
Platform
iOS, PC
Mainly all I'm seeing in this thread is "Grinding is Bad give me everything for no effort on my part" . All of these players must have used Cheat codes to max out their characters and beat the games as quickly as possible, so they could do it again and again on other games and not enjoying the storyline of the games they play.
As a LONG time player of many RPG games (D&D, AD&D, D&D v3.0, v3.5, v4.0 & V5.0 and many more) the grind is never as bad as you think it is. I have a Lv 90 MM hunter with 4 Rebirths, I love the story of the game and while not a speed runner, I enjoy the grind, because I would still be grinding after I max out my character, while waiting for new end game content.
STOP complaining about some thing you have not even played as of yet, you may just find it more enjoyable than you think, or it may be worst than you think.
Where are people saying they don’t want to put effort into it? That isn’t even the case. It’s the fact that we will have to put all our effort into it and neglect other things and still might not reach the highest reward. It’s the fact that it’s a “casual” game and their main player base is causal.. and this is coming from someone who enjoys a challenge and does not mind putting the work in to achieve a goal. But even I can see this is unrealistic to their main player base.
 

Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
I can see this drifting towards the personal, so just a little early reminder (can you have an early reminder?) to keep posts on topic and try not to get into any argumentative dialogues.
 
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MadameAnna

Huntress
Characters
Madame Anna
Platform
Android, Steam
People complaining about reaching platinum reward for 250 succesfull raids, it's a reward for maybe less than 15 ppl in the game bcs its for real raids hardcore players and stop complaining about it when you have choice to do or not to do raids for additional rewards which are UNIQUE to this season. Unique means only that players who wants to get it and can sacrifice time for reaching that goal will be rewarded, and that's fair bcs its not like in season one you in practice rewards only when reaching milestones, but now you get good loot for EVERY succesfull raid or even if you fail and got late you get "Dungeonring" EXP so still you are closer to get that raid and success so for real first try it for a two weeks or sth then complain about it.
TL:DR
Play the game then complain
You dont have to raid and grind for UNIQUE rewards
 
Characters
Tiffa, Kitty Witch
Platform
Android, PC
Tiffa, I hardly think 8h a day for 90 days straight with no weekends and no breaks is a reasonable grind, having played many grind-for-progress RPGs myself.
And I would agree, you haven't played it yet either, and I am not sure if you raided in season 1, so I am not sure how you can say with confidence that it isn't a grind.
I agree it is a grind and not for everyone. What I was getting at was if you MUST have Platinum then you have to put in the work.
I think that the Platinum levels are for those players who have nothing really left to do in the game until the devs increase the max level again.
We don't know how much better the bonuses will be between Bronze, silver, gold & Platinum levels until the patch is up and running.
I for one don't expect that difference will be all that great between levels, simular to elder levels for players.
 

Ildranach

Squirrel
Platform
Android, PC
I agree it is a grind and not for everyone. What I was getting at was if you MUST have Platinum then you have to put in the work.
I think that the Platinum levels are for those players who have nothing really left to do in the game until the devs increase the max level again.
We don't know how much better the bonuses will be between Bronze, silver, gold & Platinum levels until the patch is up and running.
I for one don't expect that difference will be all that great between levels, simular to elder levels for players.
Oh, absolutely, I agree that platinum should require effort to get. Each tier should require progressively more effort to get and reflect the effort the players put in.
However, consider this: the amount of time required to get Bronze this season is equivalent to getting Platinum last season (or only slightly less, 50x successful vs 60x successful). The math for even the earlier levels is requiring you to play nothing but raids for 2h/day at Bronze for 90 days straight in a 3 month season, which means none of the tiers are accessible to the slightly more casual player at all.
If the raid seasons were longer than three months, I would be slightly less skeptical of the time requirement and much more inclined to say 'Wait and see'. I just don't think Plat should require full-time-job-without-weekends investment in what should be a game, in order to meet the deadline for such rewards. That's all.
 
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Halleebell

Squirrel
Characters
Hallee/Freyra
Platform
iOS, PC
People complaining about reaching platinum reward for 250 succesfull raids, it's a reward for maybe less than 15 ppl in the game bcs its for real raids hardcore players and stop complaining about it when you have choice to do or not to do raids for additional rewards which are UNIQUE to this season. Unique means only that players who wants to get it and can sacrifice time for reaching that goal will be rewarded, and that's fair bcs its not like in season one you in practice rewards only when reaching milestones, but now you get good loot for EVERY succesfull raid or even if you fail and got late you get "Dungeonring" EXP so still you are closer to get that raid and success so for real first try it for a two weeks or sth then complain about it.
TL:DR
Play the game then complain
You dont have to raid and grind for UNIQUE rewards
I for one think it’s a problem if only 15 people give or take are able to achieve platinum. (I know that’s just a guess) but still out of the 1000 that play and the 100s that are cap only 15. I would find that to be a major problem and one that needs to be looked at. Just like I’m not saying every person should be able to reach it. But most of the players who are capped that Iv talk to they don’t have confidence that they’ll achieve it. Just that they’ll try. But oh well.
 
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Characters
Tiffa, Kitty Witch
Platform
Android, PC
I for one think it’s a problem if only 15 people give or take are able to achieve platinum. (I know that’s just a guess) but still out of the 1000 that play and the 100s that are cap only 15. I would find that to be a major problem and one that needs to be looked at. Just like I’m not saying every person should be able to reach it. But most of the players who are capped that Iv talk to they don’t have confidence that they’ll achieve it. Just that they’ll try. But oh well.
You have to remember that the Raids are still in the TESTING stage and can be adjusted to better fit the overall Community. The Otters can change the required amount of successful funs if needed, Lets see how the overall community feels in 2 months after the new Raids start. The Otters may make adjustments to lower the number of runs for Bronze.
 

Ivar Hill

Mad Otter Games
Developer
Although there's definitely some perfectly reasonable arguments here, I'd like to step back and look at the big picture a bit. As Relics of Malice is released, these are the various reasons you may want to engage in Raids:
  • You enjoy the objective-driven gameplay of raids and/or the ability to jump in for quick sessions.
  • You want to collect more Relics to give you new abilities or make your character stronger.
  • You want to engage in V&H combat in general, and Raids provide some variety doing that.
  • You want to gain character levels and Raids are now a good way to gain experience.
  • You want to find new combat gear, and Raids are now a good way to get dropped loot.
  • You want to reach the top of Raid leaderboards.
  • You want to follow along with the Raids storyline and complete raids to reveal more of the backstory and characters.
  • You enjoy the Raid locations in terms of their atmosphere and visuals.
  • You want to get the Seasonal bronze/silver/gold/platinum rewards and keep doing raids to work towards those.
My point here is that there's a huge range of reasons you may want to run Raids, or things you might enjoy about doing Raids, and I feel that the role of the cosmetic seasonal rewards is blown vastly out of proportion. Yes, they are a lot harder to get at this point and yes, if you want the Platinum reward you have to run a ton of raids. But let's instead look at how Raids appeal to more casual players as of Season 1 and Season 2:
  • In Season 1, since raids provided comparatively less XP and loot than other activities, you mainly run raids if you 1) specifically enjoy the gameplay and locations, 2) want a leaderboard spot, or 3) want a seasonal cosmetic reward.
  • In Season 2, raids provide about the same amount of XP and loot as other activites (e.g. bounty runs). This means that you may want to run raids simply for the sake of variety - and as an added bonus you can also get Relics and try for a spot on the leaderboards.
In other words - in Season 1, seasonal rewards used to be by and large the only reason a lot of players may have wanted to engage in raids. In Season 2, so much has changed and so many things have been added, that the importance of seasonal rewards is vastly lower. Therefore they now instead fill the role of providing the widest possible range of rewards - from one that's given to all raid participants (the free reward) to one that's given only to the <1% of players who want to strive for the very rarest of rewards. They are simply one small part of things that might motivate you to run raids, and I think it's important to view them in that context.
 
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sirbabbo

Guest
Can we just go back to the old dungeon runs? I get it was a temporary solution but 80% of the community played it and loved doing it. Then just expand off of that. Have tater dog be able to do the shop for purchases we earn in the dungeon run and then we can add catapults, (just hoping for that) or extra features we can add like the relics.
Usually accidents or temporary solutions in games are the best thing ever!
Long shot I know.
 

Celebron.

Hunter
Characters
Tirius, Celebron, Arekan
Platform
iOS, PC
Although there's definitely some perfectly reasonable arguments here, I'd like to step back and look at the big picture a bit. As Relics of Malice is released, these are the various reasons you may want to engage in Raids:
  • You enjoy the objective-driven gameplay of raids and/or the ability to jump in for quick sessions.
  • You want to collect more Relics to give you new abilities or make your character stronger.
  • You want to engage in V&H combat in general, and Raids provide some variety doing that.
  • You want to gain character levels and Raids are now a good way to gain experience.
  • You want to find new combat gear, and Raids are now a good way to get dropped loot.
  • You want to reach the top of Raid leaderboards.
  • You want to follow along with the Raids storyline and complete raids to reveal more of the backstory and characters.
  • You enjoy the Raid locations in terms of their atmosphere and visuals.
  • You want to get the Seasonal bronze/silver/gold/platinum rewards and keep doing raids to work towards those.
My point here is that there's a huge range of reasons you may want to run Raids, or things you might enjoy about doing Raids, and I feel that the role of the cosmetic seasonal rewards is blown vastly out of proportion. Yes, they are a lot harder to get at this point and yes, if you want the Platinum reward you have to run a ton of raids. But let's instead look at how Raids appeal to more casual players as of Season 1 and Season 2:
  • In Season 1, since raids provided comparatively less XP and loot than other activities, you mainly run raids if you 1) specifically enjoy the gameplay and locations, 2) want a leaderboard spot, or 3) want a seasonal cosmetic reward.
  • In Season 2, raids provide about the same amount of XP and loot as other activites (e.g. bounty runs). This means that you may want to run raids simply for the sake of variety - and as an added bonus you can also get Relics and try for a spot on the leaderboards.
In other words - in Season 1, seasonal rewards used to be by and large the only reason a lot of players may have wanted to engage in raids. In Season 2, so much has changed and so many things have been added, that the importance of seasonal rewards is vastly lower. Therefore they now instead fill the role of providing the widest possible range of rewards - from one that's given to all raid participants (the free reward) to one that's given only to the <1% of players who want to strive for the very rarest of rewards. They are simply one small part of things that might motivate you to run raids, and I think it's important to view them in that context.
Almost everything in this game is time based and not skill based(grind). Want to become a max level gatherer? you don't have to be "good" at gathering, you just have to spend hours clicking. Want to become a max level crafter? same thing, it just takes time. Same thing with leveling. All it takes is doing hours and hours of simple bountying. Want to become stronger in battle? Repeat content 5 times to get more talent points(rebirth). Want to get a stronger weapon? Make it a bunch of times. This is the same with many of the rewards. Want to get a event zone mount? you don't have to be especially good at combat, you just have to spend a lot of time in the event zone. My point is that almost every challenge beaten in this game is done so by the amount of time you put into it and not the skill you have. Dungeons, before they were taken away, were one of the only things that didn't fall into this category. You only ran them once a week, and your success had to do with teamwork, coordination, and speed at which you completed them.I loved them. They were then replaced by raids, which your advancement was based almost entirely on relics, which were only raised by raiding a lot. You literally didn't have to be good, you just had to run the highest raid level you could until your relic leveled up, to which you could then run the next level. And, after you hit level 10, you were just running the exact same layout over and over again. The leaderboard system shows this perfectly. Who is the highest on the leaderboard? not the person who could run it the fastest, but the person who ran it the most times. I have stopped playing the game almost entirely because I feel like I'm just doing the same thing over and over again.
 

Casti

Grand Priestess
Characters
Aria Aeris
Platform
Android, PC
In Season 2, raids provide about the same amount of XP and loot as other activites
That's the main problem for me, rank rewards are secondary, but this is the core of gameplay. About the same as a bounty run is pretty bad (it might be lower by the wording), a bounty run has terrible drop rates, even with capped magic find you need to kill hundreds of bounties to get a single epic item that has a veeeery low chance to be good. We had dungeons that rewarded way more than bounty runs, and they got removed. Dungeons were the place to gear up in the game, players expéct a new place to gear up, that doesn't exist for now. Adding guaranteed gear rewards after you finish a raid solves a lot of problems, and is not philosophical or an overly debatable topic like rank rewards.

What is the core reward of raids?Since they are made to replace the dungeon system, which had the main purpose of providing gear to characters, its definitely gear too. Did they reach the level of rewards the old system provided? Not yet, they aren't a reliable place to farm gear yet, they are only a place with "about the same amount of loot" as other content.

Raids are an intense combat session, 15 minutes of raiding is much more intense and much more costly than 15 minutes hunting bounties. While hunting bounties you are "out of combat" between fights, which means you dont stacks over stacks of potions to do it, you can even do it without any potion. In raids you are "in combat" you walk slower, and you regen resources muuuuuch slower, which means they demand mana potions, which aren't free, and require preparation and/or gold.

So, i believe at the minimum rewards for raids we should rule out green and below items, else the raids are costing money, but not giving back. You can kick any random rock or do any random quest in the game and get that level of reward, its not at the right level for this content.

So raids would have a guaranteed gear piece reward with certain chances to it regarding rarity but with a minimum of rare. For example:

Level 1 raid: 90% Rare, 9,5% Epic, 0,5% Legendary
Level 30 raid: 20% Rare, 79,5% Epic, 0,5% Legendary
Level 50 raid: 0% Rare, 99% Epic, 1% Legendary
Level 100 raid: 0% Rare 90% Epic, 10% Legendary

If we can reach this level, we'll finally have a system that is better than dungeons regarding both mechanics and rewards. If you believe having a chance at legendary gear is too much (But raids are the perfect place to reward players with it, since its a replacement for the gear dungeon), we can still have only rares and epics, that works too, that way it won't surpass the old dungeon system but it will at least reach the same level.
 

Ildranach

Squirrel
Platform
Android, PC
It's great that the rewards to running raids are now more in line with other V&H activities, but the question is now a bit more about why raid instead of doing any of the other half-dozen things that already exist in the game. Players won't play if they don't feel like their time is well spent. Since raids are much more challenging than a bounty run but providing about the same reward, what is encouraging players to play the raids? What engages them? What's different about raids compared to other content? Why raid?

You enjoy the objective-driven gameplay of raids and/or the ability to jump in for quick sessions.
Bounty runs are arguably quicker, have more time flexibility, and can be done on just pie; you can also hop in and out whenever you wish. Same with event runs, which provide much higher exp per time spent and don't require group setup. These two options don't kick you from the map when the timer is up, either.
Dungeon runs while they existed were even quicker, had the added bonus of being a group bonding exercise, and had a guaranteed piece of good loot with a cooldown through the quest, if you wereable to complete it.
In this particular facet, raids aren't really distinguished from the other options except where it drains your resources, making it a less favorable option.
You want to collect more Relics to give you new abilities or make your character stronger.
These are reset each season and impermanent, which, granted, disappoints the players who invested more into raids than the casuals.
Unless they don't reset anymore, but I haven't seen anything to confirm that here yet.
I don't think anyone played raids just to boost relic levels last season, unless it was because they were forced into it in order to progress.
You want to engage in V&H combat in general, and Raids provide some variety doing that.
The combat mechanics are exactly the same inside raids and outside raids. The mobs change and the configurations change, but that's about it. Most of the mechanics we have seen in previous raids recycle those from other bosses. Zikiti is Fenella, Abelard is Graeme with no drawbacks, Lilith is a blend between Artair and Belxur, Laurent is Lannox. To say that it provides variety is a little misleading.
That said, I am hopeful that this new set will introduce new mob types that aren't seen in the world to challenge raiders, with clever mechanics and clear counterplay.
You want to gain character levels and Raids are now a good way to gain experience.
Debatable: their repeatable nature does make them a potential supplement to bounty runs. Can't comment without numbers though, but they are definitely more difficult than the normal methods. More fun? Less fun? Depends on your own preferred challenge level.
The caveat here is that you will be quickly outgrowing your gear while raiding, unless you are max level, in which case this incentive doesn't apply as you are probably less concerned about xp anyway. Due to raids being scaled content, the more of a gap there is between your character level and your item level, the less effective you will be. It's almost as if the game is punishing you for growing.
You want to find new combat gear, and Raids are now a good way to get dropped loot.
This mechanic already exists outside of raids. Bounty runs may still prove superior as you won't be locked into using Liberty drams and can use Treasure drams to boost drops. I am hopeful for this change but can't comment until patch hits live.
I really like Aria's suggestion as raids are considerably more difficult than regular bounty runs and feel that rewards should be scaled up corresponding to difficulty. Players need a more reliable way to get better gear in the absence of dungeons.
You want to reach the top of Raid leaderboards.
This doesn't exist outside of raids. However, this will be occurring each raid season regardless of rewards. There are players who made it all the way to 99 in season 1 (All the bragging rights to you, you earned it). But these players are extremely rare.
You want to follow along with the Raids storyline and complete raids to reveal more of the backstory and characters.
Yes, I did enjoy the story, and it is exclusive to raids...but it was more a cute bonus than the reason I raided last season, and I don't think very many players would raid just for lore.
You enjoy the Raid locations in terms of their atmosphere and visuals.
They are very pretty sometimes. I wish there's a way to not get kicked out by a time limit so we can explore more, or that exploration wasn't punished with failing the raid. Would guess that a lot of players ignore the visuals in favor of completion since the raid timer and exploration are at odds with each other.
(Freeplay mode, pretty please? I want to host a tea party by the waterfall pool in Bandicott. So pretty...)
You want to get the Seasonal bronze/silver/gold/platinum rewards and keep doing raids to work towards those.
This is definitely exclusive.
I think I have talked that point to death, but:
The point of the current setup is that if you want to engage with raids in a more laid-back fashion, you can aim to get the Bronze reward. If you want more of a challenge, you can aim to get the Silver reward. If you want a big challenge, you can aim to get the Gold reward.
This is very misleading. 2 hours per day for 90 days straight for Bronze is not 'laid back'. It is about the same amount of effort as getting Platinum last season. Not everyone got Platinum last season either, and that was in an almost six-month timeframe due to the multiple extensions (May 15 to Late October). This is almost double the new season time.

So, to sum up the first part, the things that differentiate raids from regular content and which would encourage players to raid over normal content are:
  • Relics
  • Leaderboards
  • Lore
  • Tiered rewards
One of which is ephemeral, one of which provides bragging rights only, one of which does worldbuilding but is largely intangible otherwise, and the fourth is out of reach for most players with the current tier numbers.
  • In Season 1, since raids provided comparatively less XP and loot than other activities, you mainly run raids if you 1) specifically enjoy the gameplay and locations, 2) want a leaderboard spot, or 3) want a seasonal cosmetic reward.
  • In Season 2, raids provide about the same amount of XP and loot as other activites (e.g. bounty runs). This means that you may want to run raids simply for the sake of variety - and as an added bonus you can also get Relics and try for a spot on the leaderboards.
Season 1 had the advantage of novelty and players wanting to help beta-test, which may have given vastly inflated numbers for raid participation. Players who played dungeons may have also been funnelled into raids, seeing as dungeons were removed entirely and there was no other alternative. Indeed, Platinum in Season 1 served as a stopping point for many who did raid, since there was no additional challenge mechanics past level 10; everything past that was a numbers game. The lack of other rewards may have contributed to this as well.
Now that the novelty has worn off, most of the mechanics are still the same, and the main reason to raid has been diluted in the form of higher level requirements...I am having a very hard time seeing why a player would raid when there's so many other things they could be doing that cost less resources, time, and stress, and give better rewards with less grind.

If you push any of the above points that are comparable to existing content so that they are better than existing content, whether that be gear, experience, combat, objectives, and you would give players more of a reason to engage with the content and keep going past the hurdles.
 

Celebron.

Hunter
Characters
Tirius, Celebron, Arekan
Platform
iOS, PC
I agree it is a grind and not for everyone. What I was getting at was if you MUST have Platinum then you have to put in the work.
I think that the Platinum levels are for those players who have nothing really left to do in the game until the devs increase the max level again.
We don't know how much better the bonuses will be between Bronze, silver, gold & Platinum levels until the patch is up and running.
I for one don't expect that difference will be all that great between levels, simular to elder levels for players.
Keep in mind that this time is not simply being in the game afk gathering or crafting, but raiding. If they are any challenge, then this will require a lot of focus and you'll probably have to redo a lot of levels from mistakes. No one is asking for it to be easy to reach platinum. It's just that the numbers, even for bronze, are way to high.
 
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