Aaliagh

Wizard
Last edited
I think, you missed the point, what Aaliagh wanted to say. This player just compared pre-patch with post-patch. And the result is, that (i think icewizard) got an extremly NERF.

Yes
Every class should naturally be at a disadvantage when attempting to complete one alone because they require strong survivability as well as damage output.
So, what I'm getting from this, basically I shouldn't even attempt to play the game. Because raids are about the only thing I was able to enjoy aside from event zones at my 95 level. As a mostly solo player I'm quite frustrated with this change because I was able to play and enjoy the game before and now am not as I can't run solo raids of my level anymore and there isn't anything else for me to do really. And I certainly don't have the time to sit around and wait for the slight chance that a group of other high level people maaayyyybe will run an H16 with me since I can't do it alone anymore. Neither do I have the interest in H1 that I can run by myself or with group (seeing as that tier is run the most by group runs) as it barely gives any xp and is generally boring at my level.
 

V

Mad Otter Games
Developer
Not to add more controversy and by all means not complaining about my earth shaman but since the patch I’ve literally banked all of my mana potions I have no need for them whatsoever , all the while I’m spamming my feats right as their CDs end. Im also consistently top 3 on the DPS leaderboard, and while I think that’s awesome for my class, it isn’t exactly balanced. But if anyone was expecting perfection straight out of the gate, you’ll clearly be disappointed. I just hope folks remain patient and give the Devs time to do what we know they can and will do. I usually don’t post on things like this but I just had to add my 2 cents and ask that everyone have faith that it’ll all get worked out in due time!
Thanks for the feedback! It's always commendable when players are willing to point out overtuned aspects of their own class to help maintain balance.

Is your earth shaman's infinite mana due to the new Seismic Drain mana restore? If so, does it feel like you are only able to keep your mana up due to using the Ultimate strategically, or is it so powerful that there is no need to coordinate it? Mana potions should still be a useful consumable and it sounds like that is not the case anymore for earth shaman if the new Ultimate is too powerful. One solution could be to reduce the amount of mana restored by the Ultimate from 3% to 2%.

In terms of damage, would you contribute your high DPS to the Windfury Ultimate in the Wind tree? Tanks should not be able to compete with damage classes, hold enemy attention and retain their strong survivability at the same time. A possible resolution could be to add another property to Windfury which reduces the player's threat generation. Players can continue to use that talent for increased damage output, but tanks who invest in it will find that their threat generation faces a penalty, allowing for more traditional tank builds to maintain aggro.
 

Heisi

Shaman
Platform
  1. Steam
Thanks for the feedback! It's always commendable when players are willing to point out overtuned aspects of their own class to help maintain balance.

Is your earth shaman's infinite mana due to the new Seismic Drain mana restore? If so, does it feel like you are only able to keep your mana up due to using the Ultimate strategically, or is it so powerful that there is no need to coordinate it? Mana potions should still be a useful consumable and it sounds like that is not the case anymore for earth shaman if the new Ultimate is too powerful. One solution could be to reduce the amount of mana restored by the Ultimate from 3% to 2%.

In terms of damage, would you contribute your high DPS to the Windfury Ultimate in the Wind tree? Tanks should not be able to compete with damage classes, hold enemy attention and retain their strong survivability at the same time. A possible resolution could be to add another property to Windfury which reduces the player's threat generation. Players can continue to use that talent for increased damage output, but tanks who invest in it will find that their threat generation faces a penalty, allowing for more traditional tank builds to maintain aggro.

Are you seriously considering making alterations to a class based on a single player feedback ??
How do you know if this player's experience with his class is representative of all the Earth Shamans out there ?
I for one disagree with some of his points :

Mana consumption :
I still very much need mana potions !
Seismic Drain and the new %-based mana potions did reduce the amount of potions I need by a lot but I still need them. If you use some water feats in your standard rotation while Earth-attuned you will still use a lot of mana and Seismic Drain alone is absolutely not enough to sustain that. Seismic Shock is not always used after all other Earth skills are on CD so the mana restored is not always maxed. 3% is just fine.

The problem with this kind of feedback is that it is very much dependent on the player's build/gear/playstyle.
I have very high Expertise and yes I have the Windfury talent maxed + 5 points in Torrent so that I can spam Water Whip and have a 20 charges Water Shield. That leads to a very high mana consumption that still relies heavily on mana potions for sustain.

But why do I play with Windfury talent if I am an Earth tank would you ask ?!
Because I don't always play in group and this talent helps raise my DPS a bit for solo play !
I achieve decent DPS that way but by no means do I achieve the same DPS as good equiped/built "DPS classes" !

This is the second problem with this kind of feedback !
One player claims he is consistently top-3 in damage charts but that doesn't mean anything !
First you don't know how large his sample is and with whom he is comparing with !
I can be number-1 in damage charts if all around me have random talent distribution and no savagery/brutality on their gear.
But when I play with equally skilled players with good gear I can't compete DPS-wise even as an hybrid Earth Shaman DPS-oriented tank and that is just fine ! It should be that way !

I should also add that to achieve this "decent" DPS as a tank I have to give up a lot of survivability and I do not have all the threat generation bonuses (I have to give up on the Ultimate "Pummeling Rock" so 20% threat less).

So I feel like the DPS/threat generation/survivability equation of Earth Shaman is actually well-balanced.
You can raise two of them by sacrificing the third one and this is just right.
I don't see any need to further alter the class talents/skills.

So there you have it, sample size of 2 for the feedback^^
 

AshCloud

Shaman
Platform
  1. iOS
Thanks for the feedback! It's always commendable when players are willing to point out overtuned aspects of their own class to help maintain balance.

Is your earth shaman's infinite mana due to the new Seismic Drain mana restore? If so, does it feel like you are only able to keep your mana up due to using the Ultimate strategically, or is it so powerful that there is no need to coordinate it? Mana potions should still be a useful consumable and it sounds like that is not the case anymore for earth shaman if the new Ultimate is too powerful. One solution could be to reduce the amount of mana restored by the Ultimate from 3% to 2%.

In terms of damage, would you contribute your high DPS to the Windfury Ultimate in the Wind tree? Tanks should not be able to compete with damage classes, hold enemy attention and retain their strong survivability at the same time. A possible resolution could be to add another property to Windfury which reduces the player's threat generation. Players can continue to use that talent for increased damage output, but tanks who invest in it will find that their threat generation faces a penalty, allowing for more traditional tank builds to maintain aggro.
Here’s what I find interesting with your proposal on penalizing a full 5 rb ES for using middle talent tree. And I will say as a full earth tree sham with some windfury why should I be penalized for using all the tools in my bag? Lw has never had any penalty for using frenzied strike? And that’s not even middle tree that the whole other subclass, or any other class using anything from its middle tree. I feel that earth is pretty well balanced now. But again these are opinions based on what I see and do. Just like everyone else’s we get a snapshot of what they think but that doesn’t mean it’s the answer.

Seismic is fine as is. It will help with mana but you will run out, unless pots or you have a pocket water sham with you. I’m currently full earth with no water in setup and I still run out.
 

Black_Cvlt

Arch Wizard
Characters
Danger Zone, Black Cvlt, Coup de Grace, High Voltage
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Last edited
A possible resolution could be to add another property to Windfury which reduces the player's threat generation.
If you want to use 35/35 Windfury, you'll miss these threat buffs (max number of talent points - 130, so you can't max out Windfury and Earth branch at the same time)
1682511420121.png
If you use some water feats in your standard rotation while Earth-attuned you will still use a lot of mana and Seismic Drain alone is absolutely not enough to sustain that
What we have here is:
1 imbalanced mana penalty (+200% water feats manacost while Earth-attuned) + 1 imbalanced mana replenishing feat (Seismic Drain) = no mana problems (in most cases).

I'd like to see reduced mana penalty (+100% manacost) and reduced amount of mana restored by Seismic Drain. Because as a Wind or Water Shaman, you can use Living Water, Mana Gusts and Seismic Drain at the same time. S. Drain is a cheap and powerful source of mana atm.

I've recorded Mulgrew Swamp (Plat.) runs with different shaman builds.
95 lvl 5 rb Shaman, 50 lvl dungeoneering (+130% ability power).
The results may be different for lower levels. I do not have time to test low level builds.

1. Water Shaman (Replenish, Water Spirit, No Mana Gusts - 0 m. pots)
Build:
Replay:

2. Wind Shaman (Seismic, Water Spirit, Mana Gusts - 0 m. pots)
Build:
Replay:

3. Earth Shaman (105/105 Earth, Mana Gusts - 0 m. pots)
Build:
Replay:

4. Earth Shaman (35/35 Windfury, No Mana Gusts - 0 m.pots)
Build:
Replay:
 
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Drakz

Legendary Hero
Characters
Drakz, Zelior, Glacier, Scab, Drakzy, Ground Pounder.
Platform
  1. PC
So, what I'm getting from this, basically I shouldn't even attempt to play the game. Because raids are about the only thing I was able to enjoy aside from event zones at my 95 level. As a mostly solo player I'm quite frustrated with this change because I was able to play and enjoy the game before and now am not as I can't run solo raids of my level anymore and there isn't anything else for me to do really. And I certainly don't have the time to sit around and wait for the slight chance that a group of other high level people maaayyyybe will run an H16 with me since I can't do it alone anymore. Neither do I have the interest in H1 that I can run by myself or with group (seeing as that tier is run the most by group runs) as it barely gives any xp and is generally boring at my level.
nut honestly if your running H16 you should have a group and there is really no reason to even stress about it since the you get nothing different from H1 than you do from H16 its the same gear drops and relic drops only reason to run higher heroics is for show.
 

Renaiss

Reader
The problem with this kind of feedback is that it is very much dependent on the player's build/gear/playstyle.
You're absolutely right, but don't forget level. Just because something may be true for some players with high/max level toons doesn't mean it will be true for others, especially those at lower levels.
 
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Doorena

Squirrel
Characters
Doorena (fire wizard), Tahana (holy priest), Liza Doorlittle (earth shaman)
Platform
  1. iOS
In terms of damage, would you contribute your high DPS to the Windfury Ultimate in the Wind tree? Tanks should not be able to compete with damage classes, hold enemy attention and retain their strong survivability at the same time. A possible resolution could be to add another property to Windfury which reduces the player's threat generation. Players can continue to use that talent for increased damage output, but tanks who invest in it will find that their threat generation faces a penalty, allowing for more traditional tank builds to maintain aggro.
I don't mean to speak for Massakari (sorry!) but I do know he has Windfury. My pure earth tank does out aggro him in the few times we've played together, and he does do more damage than me.
 

Aaliagh

Wizard
Last edited
nut honestly if your running H16 you should have a group and there is really no reason to even stress about it since the you get nothing different from H1 than you do from H16 its the same gear drops and relic drops only reason to run higher heroics is for show.
If I'm trying to run it I have my reasons to do so.
P.S. my point exactly, I used to be able to solo heroics no problem. I don't have time to wait for people to do an H16 with me, plus there's little to no willing to do that level. Guess solo play is just not welcome anymore.
 

Drakz

Legendary Hero
Characters
Drakz, Zelior, Glacier, Scab, Drakzy, Ground Pounder.
Platform
  1. PC
If I'm trying to run it I have my reasons to do so.
P.S. my point exactly, I used to be able to solo heroics no problem. I don't have time to wait for people to do an H16 with me, plus there's little to no willing to do that level. Guess solo play is just not welcome anymore.
well imo no class at all should be soloing a H16 raid on any day
 

Aaliagh

Wizard
Last edited
Tell me I was nerfed without telling me I was nerfed: H1 swamp, I'm 95 with 77 dungee, lvl 79 fire wiz 56 dungee did more dmg than me. Not to mention my mana got worse now lol, opposed to the intention of improving.
 

Elijah Lin

Lumineer
Characters
Fairy Prince Eli
Platform
  1. iOS
Last edited
Okay, tried playing Holy Priest for the duration ez is here and i think its broken. It doesnt feel the same as before the mana patch and now its PURE boring… (and there isnt really a nicer way to say this 🫣) but i tried. With previous posts and personal experience playing holy pri, now it isnt anything special, especially, seeing how mana healers heal more dimensionally compare to healer with invisible buffs. Dont get me wrong, Im not here to compare the two. And no way I wanna be complaining about what the holy priest isnt. 🤷🏻‍♂️ Nope, I just dont find any enjoyment in playing holy priest which is ashame. Also, not even mentioning about solo vs group content as a healer…the effort is a lot more work in solo as you need to make up the dmg to speed things along 🤔 while as a shadow, pew pew dead! And pew pew in group content, mob dead!

Ive noticed also in our server EU1 there are a less healers in general when I was going into open raids or ez ladders, after mana patch, always need to ask for healers! (cautiously walking into a ladder run)
 
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justbequiet

Villager
Platform
  1. iOS
  2. PC
I still find holy priest quite enjoyable especially in group content. The buffs to mass shield both in talent and in the rune itself make it a viable alternative to the aoe heal. Before, holy priests were a raid boss by itself. They can heal, tank and dps most content all on their own. Now, it feels like they're primarily a healer class now which differentiates it from shadow priest more although it would be great to see some differentiated buffs in healing especially if you compare it to water shaman. Perhaps let holy priests lean more towards applying buffs and shielding while water shaman focuses on mana sustain and Heal over time (HoT)? But i digress this for another thread :)

In terms of mana post-mana build, there's a nerf towards holy priest's mana sustain but still better off than other classes IMO. I still do not use any mana potions for almost all group content except when hypercarrying in ladder/raids and this is while only taking the 15 point mana talent/ultimate in the middle tree
 
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Antavious

Warrior
Characters
Antavious, suoivatna
Platform
  1. iOS
Sounds like your dislike is more to do with how healers work, that’s fine pure healer certainty isn’t the class for everyone just like a pure tank isn’t either. Most players prefer high damage over high defence/healing of course they love having both but when push comes to shove only a rare few will pick defence/healing first even when looking at the classes where optimal defence/healing is the obvious choice.

as a result I think you will find most of the rare players who favoured defence/healing found the mana build to offer little disruption to there core play style and those that where using defensive classes with a greater emphasis on offensive have had there worlds turned upside down.

personally I thought the mana build was partially focused on nerfing the most overpowered combinations (which I clearly belong to that category) but it seams due to the nature and rarity of my particular brand of overpowered through immortality i seam to have survived and maybe even adapted to gain more power not less by avoiding the nerfs and re-investing in hybrid stuff that wasn’t. I guess nerfing some will always strengthen others wile we operate on a two class hybrid system.
 
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Elijah Lin

Lumineer
Characters
Fairy Prince Eli
Platform
  1. iOS
I still find holy priest quite enjoyable especially in group content. The buffs to mass shield both in talent and in the rune itself make it a viable alternative to the aoe heal. Before, holy priests were a raid boss by itself. They can heal, tank and dps most content all on their own. Now, it feels like they're primarily a healer class now which differentiates it from shadow priest more although it would be great to see some differentiated buffs in healing especially if you compare it to water shaman. Perhaps let holy priests lean more towards applying buffs and shielding while water shaman focuses on mana sustain and Heal over time (HoT)? But i digress this for another thread :)

In terms of mana post-mana build, there's a nerf towards holy priest's mana sustain but still better off than other classes IMO. I still do not use any mana potions for almost all group content except when hypercarrying in ladder/raids and this is while only taking the 15 point mana talent/ultimate in the middle tree
I am happy to hear that other players find enjoyment playing a healer class. I think, for me, it’s hard to adjust the experience which I had when holy could do pretty high dmg and do high heals. Seeing it become less than what it was, dampens my enjoyment of holy quite a bit. A wee bit depressing to go through but i know adjustment and balance does take time. I dont want to dampen anyone else's experiences, but i suppose this is another kind of test to see those who truly appreciate and enjoy playing this kinda proper healer/buff/def type class. I have to say, they are really great for def/buff/heals but I wonder how well did they do in solo raids? I know some of my guildies found it hard to solo when they were pure holy especially on gold and plat.

Sounds like your dislike is more to do with how healers work, that’s fine pure healer certainty isn’t the class for everyone just like a pure tank isn’t either. Most players prefer high damage over high defence/healing of course they love having both but when push comes to shove only a rare few will pick defence/healing first even when looking at the classes where optimal defence/healing is the obvious choice.

as a result I think you will find most of the rare players who favoured defence/healing found the mana build to offer little disruption to there core play style and those that where using defensive classes with a greater emphasis on offensive have had there worlds turned upside down.

personally I thought the mana build was partially focused on nerfing the most overpowered combinations (which I clearly belong to that category) but it seams due to the nature and rarity of my particular brand of overpowered through immortality i seam to have survived and maybe even adapted to gain more power not less by avoiding the nerfs and re-investing in hybrid stuff that wasn’t. I guess nerfing some will always strengthen others wile we operate on a two class hybrid system.
Aye, true that. Really ruffled some feathers for sure 💀

experiencing shadow priest abilities I dont think Ill ever going back to holy unless i can freely and build an interesting and fun hybrid. And I dunno, seeing fire wiz in action vs shadow pri, I feel both of those classes have similar offensive atk methods, just very minor differences. And seeing I cant really going back to pure holy, shadow offers a much more stronger survivability compare to a fire wiz as fire can be super glass cannon (not really ideal for elders, bosses or raids - especially high lvl mobs that crowd and overwhelm you, getting by pass your stuns and armour and testing your hp, ouch).

And well, I do like the ideal of an ultimate defensive tank but with the saying “the best defence is a good offensive”, I do feel I am nae good being a sitting duck. Need to take action and pew pew everything before they put me into the grave 🥹🥹

Alright, I think ive had a good old moan… 🤣🤣💯
 
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Lamorack

Great Adventurer
Platform
  1. iOS
Last edited
I mean, before the update, let's look at holy vs water.

Holy:
healed more (instant single target, instant aoe, over time single target, over time aoe, single target shield, aoe shield), did more damage (single and aoe, reflection without needing a glyph), could significantly increase defense of allies/self, notably increase ability powers of allies/self, could cure allies/self (aoe), increase to 100% the crit rate of allies/self, and more than 1 holy can play and still each be effective

Water:
healed less (over time single target, instant single target on huge cooldown, over time aoe smaller radius, instant fake aoe (only works aoe if allies have your over time heals)), less damage (only 2 single target spells, a very weak aoe spell with long cooldown, reflection through buffed blasting so requires glyph), can cure allies (single target only), and only 1 can be effective at a time (more than 1 shaman and some cant help much)

Water? no buffs, no shields, only 1 can work at a time, lower damage, weaker healing,

. . . that's why it's important the classes are balanced with other classes in mind. no it's not called 'balancing for pvp' it's called 'balancing'. if one class is clearly the better option, then why play the other one. For fun? For aesthetics? Why not for fun and able to be useful at the same time?

Classes need to be balanced with comparisons of effectiveness with other classes.

Strengths of healers:
survivability, heals, support for allie's through heals and very commonly through buffs

Weaknesses of healers:
commonly have a lower max health than tanks, do less dps than dps classes.

Changes to holy:
- increased shielding power more than the nerf to cure so net healing power increase (and the mass heal cooldown increase didn't really do anything, you can still keep a 99% uptime with it, it just doesn't refresh super early so you don't waste mana casting it too soon)
- significantly increased ability to buff allies (although everyone agrees the bless buffs could be more powerful, they're pretty weak rn)
- slightly decreased dps (which is increasing a little more with each patch)

It's not a DPS class though ppl. it's a healer.
I suppose what puzzles me about this is that I never saw Water and Holy as being equivalent. Holy is a healing powerhouse. The amount of healing a holy can drop is staggering ( just look at any chart, effective healing and ineffective). That’s it’s WOW factor as I see it. Seems an appropriate one to me.

Water always struck me as a support healer and now mana well—which is awesome to have, it’s WOW if you like. That’s the way I hope it remains, personally. Water as more dps but less healing power. Neither being true tanks or top dps candidates. That makes them both different and worth playing. The alternative is merger of identity.

The best results in any group come from combining the two. That’s a sneaky but powerful indicator that the balance between them is close to being optimal in my view.

To add a couple of unrelated sub class observations:

I do agree with Irish Elf and those that point out that, for a dps class, fury warrior doesn’t have a WOW. It’s also by far the biggest mana pit per unit of damage done, it’s not even close. Since it’s also the greatest contributor to carpal tunnel, that combination has long seemed a tad unfair.

A good conversation might be how a little sparkle could be added to furies. I don’t have a brilliant though at this point, but there appears room for some dps buff vis-a-vis other pure dps classes.

Finally, of all the sun classes, the one that needs the most consideration is Ice. It was once a great dps sub class. Until recently the right builds were still pretty good, but it’s now not a healer, not capable of being a quasi tank as if yore and offers nothing in a group settings from its ability to freeze/stun. Even in solo all but water have enough of that that the advantage is not that significant.

I can’t personally see why Ice as it stands should be weaker than fire, not with the area abilities fire can have and the lack of group benefit from an ice. However, if Ice is not to be a dps sub class it has to have something beyond being easier to play at low levels (but holy always seemed easier even then).

I am glad that the tenor of the discussion seems to have changed from full tilt change, with the only question being nuance in direction, to one of thinking about what these all mean in the context of game experience and the reason to play and enjoy each sub class.
 

Black_Cvlt

Arch Wizard
Characters
Danger Zone, Black Cvlt, Coup de Grace, High Voltage
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Holy is a healing powerhouse. The amount of healing a holy can drop is staggering ( just look at any chart, effective healing and ineffective)
My personal record as a Water shaman is 1 billion of ineffective healing and ~65-70 mln of effective healing after full Elder run (~20 people).
So water shaman is a strong HoT healer. It's just not very trivial (but possible) to outperform holy in effective heal, because holy can restore missing hp instantly and some part of HoT from water sham will go to ineffective heal.

That’s the way I hope it remains, personally. Water as more dps but less healing power.
A pure water shaman can't deal more damage than a pure holy priest. Holy Bolt + Heaven's Prayer is just OP. WS simply doesn't have enough tools to deal damage. Blasting + Riptide is good in solo game but does not work well in group runs.
P.S. my hp layout & talents (90-100 mln damage, 20-25 mln of effective heal):
holy_layout.png
 
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