AshCloud

Shaman
Platform
  1. iOS
Please just remove the charts, they do not give the correct picture of who's better, stronger, does most damage and create jealousy and anger.

I’m confused though, in this quote you said to remove charts because they aren’t accurate but now say to use charts.
The devs said they accept all feedback, with and without charts. And we as players and those posting in forums are trying to give feedback and improve things some with and some without charts.
 

Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
  1. PC
Constructive criticism is the key, whether that be in the form of detailed analysis of what x variable does to y multiplier when z buff is applied, or statements such as, "nerfing Ice Javelin means ice wiz doesn't feel as much fun anymore." We may not all agree on what is best for the game, and we may not all feel qualified to make detailed analyses of the various skills and talents, but we all want the game to continue improving and we all want to have fun playing it.

Please let's all stop trying to score points off each other arguing about who is right and wrong, or what type of feedback is best and simply concentrate on trying to offer the best, most meaningful and contstructive comments that we can to support the Devs in producing content we can all enjoy.
 

Allison Wonderland

Priestess
Royal Guardian
Platform
  1. PC
Has anyone ever thought about default healing? All the subclasses have default damage. Seems it would only be fair if holy priest had an instant no cost heal of some kind. Holy priest have to individually target to heal and if the target dies the heal get thrown on me, not like combat when the target dies you automatically hit something else that needs to die. Wish when I was healing and someone died I would automatically target someone who needs to be healed.
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Last edited
I’m confused though, in this quote you said to remove charts because they aren’t accurate but now say to use charts.
The devs said they accept all feedback, with and without charts. And we as players and those posting in forums are trying to give feedback and improve things some with and some without charts.
The charts I spoke about not being accurate were the "in-game" combat charts which show damage done, damage taken etc.
And the charts I mentioned here https://villagersandheroes.com/forums/threads/new-mana-build-blahs.8433/#post-91423 were the charts people post on the forums.
Sorry for the confusion. I should have been clearer in my references. :)
 

Landenen

Adventurer
Characters
Hunt, Grace, Blade, Gale, Blaze, Malificent, Mark, Furia, Glacia
Platform
  1. iOS
  2. PC
I
Has anyone ever thought about default healing? All the subclasses have default damage. Seems it would only be fair if holy priest had an instant no cost heal of some kind. Holy priest have to individually target to heal and if the target dies the heal get thrown on me, not like combat when the target dies you automatically hit something else that needs to die. Wish when I was healing and someone died I would automatically target someone who needs to be healed.
Target healing is typically not an efficient way to heal- if someone is in trouble of course use a target heal, but if worried about a group or more then just a single individual, best bet is to use a group heal, also restore for a holy priest chains so that is a good idea to use when group heals are on timer. My strategy for heals is to keep an eye on party health for if an individual is in trouble, otherwise I just keep the group heals going and then use restore and heal on self. My thoughts are a bit selfish but always figured if I died then it’s bad news for whole group, so rarely use single target except for self.
 

Landenen

Adventurer
Characters
Hunt, Grace, Blade, Gale, Blaze, Malificent, Mark, Furia, Glacia
Platform
  1. iOS
  2. PC
I guess I shouldn’t have been surprised but I really didn’t want this discussion to devolve into a “pointing the finger” type. I wanted to see and hear what people were feeling; the impressions on class changes. I completely agree with Magenta, stay on focus and have some patience. As you can see, nothing is written in stone and the devs obviously are taking notice and reacting.
 

Elijah Lin

Lumineer
Characters
Fairy Prince Eli
Platform
  1. iOS
Last edited
Constructive criticism is the key, whether that be in the form of detailed analysis of what x variable does to y multiplier when z buff is applied, or statements such as, "nerfing Ice Javelin means ice wiz doesn't feel as much fun anymore." We may not all agree on what is best for the game, and we may not all feel qualified to make detailed analyses of the various skills and talents, but we all want the game to continue improving and we all want to have fun playing it.

Please let's all stop trying to score points off each other arguing about who is right and wrong, or what type of feedback is best and simply concentrate on trying to offer the best, most meaningful and contstructive comments that we can to support the Devs in producing content we can all enjoy.
I think this is good place to start :) Also, having a scenario, personal and situational feedback would definitely be a great help and painting a picture for everyone who hasnt played that class and future players who may want to play that class. I am sure the experience from a lvl 30 toon would experience combat and abilities differently from a toon that is lvl 60 and not regarding rbs. Every feedback will bring more pieces to the puzzle. 🌞

Most of my toons are lvl 80+ and a couple lvl under 30 (I dont really play them), so it would be hard to give any feedback around those progressing toons 🤔 Which i feel I might have a totally different experience lvling those toons now, if I didnt start over a few years ago!

Or just thinking how the future generation who stumble upon this game, will experience the norm there, while currently in our time period we are all making a point and critiquing about these ”new” changes, for the future ones, this will be old news. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

So lets make a good impression and critique well, shall we?
 

Drakz

Legendary Hero
Characters
Drakz, Zelior, Glacier, Scab, Drakzy, Ground Pounder.
Platform
  1. PC
I'm not sure why my post about constructive feedback was interpreted as "prove your point loudly agressively with charts and examples".
No need to fight, no need to gather tons of data for your character. Just provide a little more context on your issue (share your build, for example), it'll be more than enough.

Well, if we want to make a class more enjoyable to play, it is in our interest to make their job easier.



Let's compare two healers - Holy Priest and Water Shaman.

Holy PriestWater Shaman
High AoE dps (Holy Bolt + Heaven's Prayer)Low AoE dps (Riptide doesn't work in a party)
Average Solo target dps (a little higher than the dps of Water Shaman - 3 spells - Holy Bolt, Smite, Divine Hammer)Average Solo target dps (2 spells - Water Whip + Water Bolt)
High Instant heal (low cd Heal, Bless, Cure)Low Instant Heal (Swift Waters - high manacost, high cooldown)
Low DoT heal (Restore, Mass Heal)High DoT heal (almost all healing spells of Water Shaman are DoTs)
Low AoE heal (Restore + Heaven's Prayer, Mass Heal)High AoE heal (Healing Rain + Wave Healing)
AoE CureSolo target Cure
Great mana management (Righteousness + Blessed Recompense from Bless)Not so good mana management (Liwing Water + you need to spend 15 talents for Mana Gusts)
Good in Solo and Party Raids as it is; no need to reset talents, gear etc.Poor performance in Solo Raids, you need to reset talents (drop Surge of Life, take Riptide)
Buffs (Each class has its own unique set of buffs; I prefer buffs of Holy Priest):
  • Bless (+10-20 Ability Power / Critical Chance or -20-40% manacost or +7.5-15% resistance)
  • Shield (+ random Blessing upon shield expiration)
  • Condemn (-30% of armor and magic resist for enemy)
Buffs:
  • Mana restoring buffs (Replenish from Wave Healing, Mistral)
  • Wind Shear (-40% of armor and magic resist for enemy - useless if we have a tank and an enemy does not have AoE spells)

I think Holy Priest has enough WOW factors compare to another healer subclass (Water Shaman) - high AoE dps, high instant heal, AoE Cure, great mana management, universality.
Holy has no more wow factor and no they dont have high dps and the random effect thing is a joke you cant rely on random as a healer. Not saying Water has a wow factor either but Holy sure dont have one anymore since the patch.
 

Elijah Lin

Lumineer
Characters
Fairy Prince Eli
Platform
  1. iOS
Last edited
Holy has no more wow factor and no they dont have high dps and the random effect thing is a joke you cant rely on random as a healer. Not saying Water has a wow factor either but Holy sure dont have one anymore since the patch.
Hi, sorry. Can we elaborate what you mean a few things you are saying here? I think a good critique needs a bit more info here, please 🙏

Holy has no more wow factor

• What was the wow factor before the mana build? And why ?

(From my experience, I didnt know there was a wow factor 🤭 I really enjoyed playing Holy. Example: high dmg, good heals, survivability and feats and ultimates procs more power. Which until its gone, I really felt the difference.)

the random effect thing is a joke you cant rely on random as a healer.
• Im sure someone else made a post about the proc effects of bless and random effects of shield. But, it would be helpful to know why do you think this new blessing effects cant be relied upon?

(For me, at least, when I get the blessing, its pretty short lived, I can barely read what I got blessed with 🤭 Let alone to enjoy it 🤪)


Not saying Water has a wow factor either but Holy sure dont have one anymore since the patch.
🤣 Wait- you dont need to drag water shammy in the water too!

But, lets focus on this point, why doesnt water shaman have a wow factor? Is this a personal opinion or a general majority of players who have similar opinion about water shaman?

I want to also highlight that everyone has likes and dislikes about all the classes we all play. For one person water shaman can be a dull subclass and it doesnt vibe well with their abilities and feats but for another person its the best subclass they could ever play 🤷🏻‍♂️

Example, I dont play hunters and I do have one. To me, that class doesnt vibe with me at all, feats, ultimates, playstyle, everything! I do love their bows tho. So before the patch, nope, and certainly, factor after the patch 🤭 Still nope.


Sorry, Ive gone in a little deep here but like I said, to have a good critique, we need more info and reasons to back up what we are saying and not just saying it just because. Like everyone else, as players, Im sure we are either in the same boat or on a different boat: which is, we really enjoy the new changes or really we don't enjoy.


So lets try our best to meet half way and give good reasons, critique, thought about how we can move forward. (Or backwards, if we feel the past was better 🤷🏻‍♂️ But please say why, it helps everyone to a wee bit understand rather than ranting… well, unless its purposely a rant then… ignore my post 😅😅😅)
 

Allison Wonderland

Priestess
Royal Guardian
Platform
  1. PC
Last edited
I have a few healing priest. Only 2 are Lv 95 with rebirths. PC and mobile heal a bit differently. It sounds like you use mass heal and mass cure more than other heals. It is hard to target on mobile and not really a fair comparison to healing on PC. There is no wrong or right way to play any character, just what works best for you. Normally we don't have many deaths in the group except for heroic catacomb and Hox when Trox has blood mastery and everyone is stunned. My strategy is to keep the tank as full as I can and watch for others who might need a little tap. I only use mass heal, aoe cure and mass shield when everyone is going down.

My point is every heal we have cost mana and all the other classes have a "free" default feat. When you cast any heal if the person die the cast is thrown on me which is a wasted heal that has to refresh before I can cast it again. Of course if you spam mass heal and cure it really doesn't matter since you do hit everyone in range.
Target healing is typically not an efficient way to heal- if someone is in trouble of course use a target heal, but if worried about a group or more then just a single individual, best bet is to use a group heal, also restore for a holy priest chains so that is a good idea to use when group heals are on timer. My strategy for heals is to keep an eye on party health for if an individual is in trouble, otherwise I just keep the group heals going and then use restore and heal on self. My thoughts are a bit selfish but always figured if I died then it’s bad news for whole group, so rarely use single target except for self.
 
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AshCloud

Shaman
Platform
  1. iOS
I have a few healing priest. Only 2 are Lv 95 with rebirths. PC and mobile heal a bit differently. It sounds like you use mass heal and mass cure more than other heals. It is hard to target on mobile and not really a fair comparison to healing on PC. There is no wrong or right way to play any character, just what works best for you. Normally we don't have many deaths in the group except for heroic catacomb and Hox when Trox has blood mastery and everyone is stunned. My strategy is to keep the tank as full as I can and watch for others who might need a little tap. I only use mass heal, aoe cure and mass shield when everyone is going down.

My point is every heal we have cost mana and all the other classes have a "free" default feat. When you cast any heal if the person die the cast is thrown on me which is a wasted heal that has to refresh before I can cast it again. Of course if you spam mass heal and cure it really doesn't matter since you do hit everyone in range.

I’m kind of interested in exploring the auto heal. Each class has an auto attk and water shams can turn that from melee(default) to ranged with a talent ultimate. So that could be a suggestion that if you max X talent your auto attack becomes an aoe heal, only prob with this is when Ofc you don’t want to heal😂. Just my opinion of course.
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
There is no wrong or right way to play any character, just what works best for you.
I can't agree more! And this is sort of what I've been trying to say. I did change my holy priest up a ton over the past 12 years! When they added shadow priests I refused to switch because I wanted to be able to not only heal me but others.


It is hard to target on mobile and not really a fair comparison to healing on PC.

Thank you for posting that, I didn't realize there was a difference.
My point is every heal we have cost mana and all the other classes have a "free" default feat. When you cast any heal if the person die the cast is thrown on me which is a wasted heal that has to refresh before I can cast it again.
That is hard, and does freak out priests in a fight when we are already close to running out of mana.
My point is every heal we have cost mana and all the other classes have a "free" default feat.
That doesn't seem right does it? I wish one heal feat, especially one beneficial to others would either be free or give back mana based on the number of others helped.
 

Aaliagh

Wizard
If I have to bother with spending hours to optimize my gear and then notice that I'm still forced to do find an elite group to get most of the rewards, then I can just go back to the game I played before (which I did btw) and enjoy the better graphics, the larger content and the perfectly balanced classes.

The simplicity and ease, the relaxed solo play that V&H offered when I started was what I loved about it, and that you could earn most of the non-crown rewards without having to perfect your build or belong to the largest guild. Not the whole free to play thing - I don't mind paying for play time. Sadly most of the changes in the last two years took the joy of playing away piece by piece till I had to quit at some point. It just doesn't make sense to spend my free time getting frustrated and upset over and over again and to spend hard earned money on supporting programmers that destroy what I love about the game.
THIS! I loved the game because it provided challenging BUT Playable content. As an example, last raid season my Swamp raid was H33. This season, right after the update (even after the 2nd one which brought back my shield) I cannot complete an H15 Swamp. Same raid, same gear, butchered dps. I simply refuse to log on and play for half an hour only to end up loosing the raid with the boss Almost but not quite dead and not getting any rewards. I do not need to get frustrated over a game. I come to play to relax, not to get more stressed out. So for now I resort to reading books, if I can't get back my dps then I'd rather not play at all or, like you said, play my other game with better graphics where I still have a high level character. Yes, the community may not be as friendly and I will dearly miss all of the people I came to know here, but I'm a solo player mostly so it will work out just fine. If I can't enjoy solo play here then I can't enjoy the game, period.
 

V

Mad Otter Games
Developer
Holy has no more wow factor and no they dont have high dps and the random effect thing is a joke you cant rely on random as a healer. Not saying Water has a wow factor either but Holy sure dont have one anymore since the patch.
Hi, sorry. Can we elaborate what you mean a few things you are saying here? I think a good critique needs a bit more info here, please 🙏



• What was the wow factor before the mana build? And why ?

(From my experience, I didnt know there was a wow factor 🤭 I really enjoyed playing Holy. Example: high dmg, good heals, survivability and feats and ultimates procs more power. Which until its gone, I really felt the difference.)


• Im sure someone else made a post about the proc effects of bless and random effects of shield. But, it would be helpful to know why do you think this new blessing effects cant be relied upon?

(For me, at least, when I get the blessing, its pretty short lived, I can barely read what I got blessed with 🤭 Let alone to enjoy it 🤪)



🤣 Wait- you dont need to drag water shammy in the water too!

But, lets focus on this point, why doesnt water shaman have a wow factor? Is this a personal opinion or a general majority of players who have similar opinion about water shaman?

I want to also highlight that everyone has likes and dislikes about all the classes we all play. For one person water shaman can be a dull subclass and it doesnt vibe well with their abilities and feats but for another person its the best subclass they could ever play 🤷🏻‍♂️

Example, I dont play hunters and I do have one. To me, that class doesnt vibe with me at all, feats, ultimates, playstyle, everything! I do love their bows tho. So before the patch, nope, and certainly, factor after the patch 🤭 Still nope.


Sorry, Ive gone in a little deep here but like I said, to have a good critique, we need more info and reasons to back up what we are saying and not just saying it just because. Like everyone else, as players, Im sure we are either in the same boat or on a different boat: which is, we really enjoy the new changes or really we don't enjoy.


So lets try our best to meet half way and give good reasons, critique, thought about how we can move forward. (Or backwards, if we feel the past was better 🤷🏻‍♂️ But please say why, it helps everyone to a wee bit understand rather than ranting… well, unless its purposely a rant then… ignore my post 😅😅😅)

From this feedback it seems like the issues surrounding Holy are due to the new 'random' effects (Bless and the Blessings that are applied from shields). While the goal of the new Bless was to make it a more useful tool with stronger bonuses and the chance to stack multiple blessings at a time with Divine Inspiration, if players would rather have the old version back then it can be reverted in an upcoming build along with the removal of the random shield effects.

THIS! I loved the game because it provided challenging BUT Playable content. As an example, last raid season my Swamp raid was H33. This season, right after the update (even after the 2nd one which brought back my shield) I cannot complete an H15 Swamp. Same raid, same gear, butchered dps. I simply refuse to log on and play for half an hour only to end up loosing the raid with the boss Almost but not quite dead and not getting any rewards. I do not need to get frustrated over a game. I come to play to relax, not to get more stressed out. So for now I resort to reading books, if I can't get back my dps then I'd rather not play at all or, like you said, play my other game with better graphics where I still have a high level character. Yes, the community may not be as friendly and I will dearly miss all of the people I came to know here, but I'm a solo player mostly so it will work out just fine. If I can't enjoy solo play here then I can't enjoy the game, period.

Classes are generally not balanced for Heroic Raids because they stand as the most challenging content in the game. Every class should naturally be at a disadvantage when attempting to complete one alone because they require strong survivability as well as damage output. Buffing a class because a player is able to complete Heroic X but feels that they should be able to complete Heroic Y will always result in an infinite loop of benefits that would have an adverse affect on the balancing of the base game.

If multiple players find that they are unable to solo bounties or cannot advance with main story progression due to the limitations of their class, then that would be a strong indication that the class is in dire need of buffs.
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Classes are generally not balanced for Heroic Raids because they stand as the most challenging content in the game. Every class should naturally be at a disadvantage when attempting to complete one alone because they require strong survivability as well as damage output. Buffing a class because a player is able to complete Heroic X but feels that they should be able to complete Heroic Y will always result in an infinite loop of benefits that would have an adverse affect on the balancing of the base game.

If multiple players find that they are unable to solo bounties or cannot advance with main story progression due to the limitations of their class, then that would be a strong indication that the class is in dire need of buffs.
Thank you!
 
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Zyani

Jack Of All Trades
Royal Guardian
Characters
Zyani,Borghilde,Jitlayda+ 12more
Platform
  1. PC
Classes are generally not balanced for Heroic Raids because they stand as the most challenging content in the game. Every class should naturally be at a disadvantage when attempting to complete one alone because they require strong survivability as well as damage output. Buffing a class because a player is able to complete Heroic X but feels that they should be able to complete Heroic Y will always result in an infinite loop of benefits that would have an adverse affect on the balancing of the base game.
What i have seen sofar is that some classes, especcially the marksman hunter, are at a huge disadvantage after the new builds.
Not only is the new playstyle way off from the ones you are used too but the feats that made the marksman stand out are gone, pointing at the stunn capebilities they had.
Also those who do not care about the raids, incl me, only see totally nerfed classes and are wandering why they had to be changed if they where perfectly o.k.
Therefor in my opinion the old builds should be returned.
Make changes slowly and in steps is better so you can fully understand not just the new build but also how ppl think of them.

I am one of the few players (not even sure there are more) who has all subclasses, no hybrids, and can compare them all, but to complete test all 10 out gonna take a while.
 
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Inasani

Citizen
Classes are generally not balanced for Heroic Raids because they stand as the most challenging content in the game. Every class should naturally be at a disadvantage when attempting to complete one alone because they require strong survivability as well as damage output. Buffing a class because a player is able to complete Heroic X but feels that they should be able to complete Heroic Y will always result in an infinite loop of benefits that would have an adverse affect on the balancing of the base game.

I think, you missed the point, what Aaliagh wanted to say. This player just compared pre-patch with post-patch. And the result is, that (i think icewizard) got an extremly NERF.

I dont have an icewiz but i see ppl in my guild that are very sad and dont really wanna play icewiz anymore. And i think there are much more silent ppl like this one, who never post here in the forum.

And i am with Zyani. Making changes slowly would maybe the better way... And maybe dont call a patch mana-patch when its more about nerf classes...
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Make changes slowly and in steps is better so you can fully understand not just the new build but also how ppl think of them.
There would still be people upset because of any change.
But I have a question for you... Given that hunters DPS was so high, didn't you notice warriors constantly running after the boss's after range fighters used those big feats?
How would you propose warriors be able to control a group fight? Because as range fighters DPS grew along with their protection warriors did not.

I also have to mention here that since I started playing in 2011, any time the warriors were able to keep and hold aggro, range fighters were all upset and kept saying the warriors were OP.
So how do the devs balance this for fairness?
 

Squonk

Master Villager
Characters
Squonk, Auburn Bow, Morgawa, Auburn Shade, Auburn Flame, Auburn Assassin, Medusala, Auburn Saint, +2
Platform
  1. PC
There would still be people upset because of any change.
But I have a question for you... Given that hunters DPS was so high, didn't you notice warriors constantly running after the boss's after range fighters used those big feats?
How would you propose warriors be able to control a group fight? Because as range fighters DPS grew along with their protection warriors did not.

I also have to mention here that since I started playing in 2011, any time the warriors were able to keep and hold aggro, range fighters were all upset and kept saying the warriors were OP.
So how do the devs balance this for fairness?

Other than during the small period of time with the bugged hunter feats after the first mana patch, when has hunters stealing aggro ever been an issue?
And any hunters complaining about warriors keeping aggro is more a mental issue on their end rather than something that needs an in-game balance/fix :p
 
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