SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
Given the instant 10%, I think makign the CD be at least 30 seconds makes a TON of sense. I've been just drinking 3 or 4 in a row when I'm low instead of popping scornyx/half mana.

If tripled will's bonus, that would be nice, too. Then, investing in will would be ok.
 

Zazie

BRA Member
Royal Guardian
Characters
Zazie, Shiny, Skip, Auntie
Platform
PC
...anything above 6-9 seconds will be a SERIOUS NERF for anyone drinking 100-150 mana potions in 15 minutes. We must seriously consider that there is a direct correlation between mana restored and damage dealt....
I agree with both of these points. I don't feel that it's fair that players have the ability to consume 100-150 mana potions in 15 minutes. (The fact that this option even exists suggests a horrible imbalance!)

I would also like to see players weaned off of using level 3 mana potions as an all-purpose solution. At least encourage players to use the level 3 ones occasionally and the mana potion at their level on occasion, too! :) During last Sunday's level 95 elder run, I think I used one scornyx, 2 or 3 level 93 mana potions, and roughly 10 of the level 3 mana potions? Something like that. It felt reasonable....If I wanted the stronger shield along with the mana regen, I used the higher level one. If I was struggling more with the mana and didn't care about having the stronger shield, I used the cheaper potion.

And yes, I too would like to see more value given to intellect and will, particularly will.

Given the instant 10%, I think makign the CD be at least 30 seconds makes a TON of sense.
Agreed!
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Sprig's build has 25 "leftover" points if he doesn't take unstable power, so you'd need to hide it in a 30-pointer if your goal is specifically to nerf hybrid priests.
Don't really think it's a nerf it might even be a buff in some aspect, just want to make it a bit "taxing" to built around, and probably become more specialized and less versatile. Also I just think it make much more sense isn't it, it will still be a strong ultimate even for 20 talent point and make vampiria have more value.
And for nerfing high level hybrids in general, see my post about making some skills "2-slot" abilities.
I think I missed it where can I look for that?
I agree with both of these points. I don't feel that it's fair that players have the ability to consume 100-150 mana potions in 15 minutes. (The fact that this option even exists suggests a horrible imbalance!)
IMO it actually is fair since the player work for it, they make them or buy them, I find the only issue is that it can be made easily and very cheap using alt since the level3 mana potion is already as good as the lvl 93 one
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
I think that will work but is a bit too much. May be make the "Popular" strong feat that hybrid take to work like warrior Lightning Bolt and Thunder Bolt, make them very weak numerically but have higher scaling on ability power, those two have 500% ability power scaling so at +80% ability power those two get +400% ability power instead, so if you just have +40% ability power they're bot that strong, which make hybrid player have to spend more resources and think their built more carefully.
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
I think that will work but is a bit too much. May be make the "Popular" strong feat that hybrid take to work like warrior Lightning Bolt and Thunder Bolt, make them very weak numerically but have higher scaling on ability power, those two have 500% ability power scaling so at +80% ability power those two get +400% ability power instead, so if you just have +40% ability power they're bot that strong, which make hybrid player have to spend more resources and think their built more carefully.
Maybe, but my observation in theorycrafting Hybrids in Wizard and warrior, plus my experience in priest is that they would be really close on ability power (because of the diminishing returns to mastery), maybe 3% ability power difference if nobody is using gralla seeds (since it seems to me that hybrids in those 3 classes could max both 40-point talents). I don't know how hunters or shamans would be able to afford maxing the 40% ability power talents, though, so it could make a big nerf to them if there were hybrids in those classes.

If we are saying we don't have a problem with low level hybrids (only with high level ones who would have the talent points to take both 40-pointers), then this might not be the best way to nerf them.
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Maybe, but my observation in theorycrafting Hybrids in Wizard and warrior, plus my experience in priest is that they would be really close on ability power (because of the diminishing returns to mastery), maybe 3% ability power difference if nobody is using gralla seeds (since it seems to me that hybrids in those 3 classes could max both 40-point talents).
yeah it is only around 3% ability power difference, but at the same time they also need to sacrifice around 20k stats that they could spend elsewhere or if they use mastery dram they can't use liberty or malice dram. I don't think hybrid should be nerfed, but the player that goes hybrid have to work for it or make not going hybrid more interesting.
I don't know how hunters or shamans would be able to afford maxing the 40% ability power talents, though, so it could make a big nerf to them if there were hybrids in those classes.
I think shaman can still do it, but not hunter. Hunter is a good example to make hybrid not always the best choice for maxed out character, because their 20 and 30 talent point talent is actually great, while on almost all other class the 20-30 talent is not that great which why hybrid is almost always the most interesting way to built the character. That's the most optimal way to solve the hybrid problem, redesign all the talent so that the 20, 30 and 35 point talent interesting and make there are no bad feat/talent, but that's the hard route.
 
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SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
I think shaman can still do it, but not hunter. Hunter is a good example to make hybrid not always the best choice for maxed out character, because their 20 and 30 talent point talent is actually great, while on almost all other class the 20-30 talent is not that great which why hybrid is almost always the most interesting way to built the character. That's the most optimal way to solve the hybrid problem, redesign all the talent so that the 20, 30 and 35 point talent interesting and make there are no bad feat/talent, but that's the hard route.
Yeah, I would say, though, that talent-wise, holy priest does have an awesome 30-pointer. The AoE on holy bolt from Heaven's Prayer is awesome (and it makes restore viable!), and the mana AND health restore from righteousness (as well as holy power+) is great!

To me, though, hybrid skill-wise is still the choice for holy priest even if you don't have _any_ talent points in shadow! (in fact, that was my original first move: add shadow bolt just for the DoT, since mass shield was bleh.) In order to have "utility skills" (like Divine Hammer or Darkfrost) in subclass 1, then you're guaranteeing that using "bread and butter crafted skill" from subclass 2 is more DPS (especially when all elders can only be stunned a couple times per minute and the l95 elders are completely immune to most debuffs).
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
I’m not able to get in-game at the moment to give you a real breakdown, but I get more of mine from Flux. I don’t remember off the top of my head, but I think my Poise might be slightly above yours (maybe 1k pts). Most of my extra mastery comes from gloves and wep (where I have lvl 99 mastery reinforcing runes)
You ever get a chance to see where your additional "standing" shadow power came from to get to 190?
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Yeah, I would say, though, that talent-wise, holy priest does have an awesome 30-pointer. The AoE on holy bolt from Heaven's Prayer is awesome (and it makes restore viable!), and the mana AND health restore from righteousness (as well as holy power+) is great!
I agree that most of those talent are awesome, the issue is that they're not worth the amount of talent they needed, they're too expensive for what they give. On almost all class that I played when I level them up what I take for their talent is always the one that cost 5, 10 and 40 first and after that modified the built depending on what i want from there, they have such a great impact for their cost.
You ever get a chance to see where your additional "standing" shadow power came from to get to 190?
I believe it's Impossible to get 190% ability power outside of battle but inside of battle it is very possible, unless there are other rune like wrath of clorian, that I haven't seen yet that alter ability power. Outside of battle there are Talent tree 40%, mastery 30%, 3% superior ash rune, Poise 15% , Including in-battle related stats Glory 20% (5 stack), Flux 15%, and berserk 20% (everything I mentioned is the max)
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Last edited
I have been focusing on my Lightning tank these past 6 months, and prior to him I was building my wannabe holy support healer. Recently, I swapped my holy into Shadow so I could experience playing a DPS class again. I think what @Giruv mentioned about slowing combat down holds a lot of merit. This isn't combat... it's just spam. I'm literally just spamming abilities (granted, in a specific order) and managing to hit the top of the charts. There's some semblance of strategy involved in ordering your combinations, but combat is just too fast! I am never at a point where I have all of my spells on cool-down. I'm always casting something, and hardly ever running out of mana. I don't even have well-read as a talent.

Some Dungeon data:

Heroic Cloister: Hiding other names for their anonymity
1583542550642.png
Heroic Halls: Hiding other names for their anonymity
1583542590665.png

Combat really does need to slow down... we need to focus on tactical game-play. Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy the V&H combat system. It has a steady flow and great animations as well as visuals. But we're starting to lose the rhythm and simply spam... it comes down to who can tap their abilities the first and fastest. We need to lower the cap on Expertise a bit, from 50% down to ~35%. This will allow spells to actually spend time refreshing rather than simply blinking on and off as they do now. Spells could also be classified into different variants:
  • Fast Refresh / Low Damage
  • Moderate Refresh / Moderate Damage / Status Effect
  • Long Refresh / High Damage / Combo Affect
That way players will always have a few staple spells they can "spam", but some others can be reserved for more strategic reasons, such as combos or maybe even fusions! Maybe even include some different attack types.

Charged Attacks: Specific abilities per class could be charged (by holding down the ability icon) while charging, the ability grows in power, but the player is vulnerable to interruption by an enemy attack. This could be interesting for Tanks, maybe a Shield ability that can be pressed down in order to mitigate damage, but it drains mana over time. Perhaps for DPS there could be a blazing fireball brewing above my staff and I choose to release it when it's at the height of its power. Perhaps even include some skill or reaction based firing options - for example when charging an attack, there is a progress bar and players have to release at the correct time in order for the greatest output. There is a slim window of opportunity to release it as the slider moves across the progress bar.

Combos: Combos are a series of attacks, that when done in the proper order can yield devastating results. I would like to see the introduction of combos within the game. Add a variety of sequence options and let players choose which combos they wish to utilize depending on the situation. Players have a limited time to perform the rest of the combo though after the initial ability is used. Using another spell in-between that isn't part of the combo will break the combo. These combos could connect together a few of the shorter and moderate cool-down spells and end the chain on one of the finisher long cooldown spells. That way these are less frequent, but quite useful for those who take advantage and line their ducks up in preparation for one.

Detonations are a prime example of a good combo! The problem is that it is simply too easy to produce, and occurs too frequently. It would be cool if it was on a cool-down or limited by the 'detonator's refresh (shadow orbs).

Ultimate Attack Meter: Whenever the player performs combos, their Ultimate meter will begin to fill. When the bar is at its limit the player can unleash a massive attack, similar to the scale of a priests' judgement ability in terms of scale.

I'll provide an example of a combo for some of the sub-classes. I feel there should be around 3 different combos per sub-class for variety and option select purposes. Players choose which combo is best for them, according to their current combat scenario.

Ice Wizard Combo - Shatter

Perform the following spells in order:
  • Ice Javelin (Low cooldown) - Enemy must be given the 'slow' effect for this combo to proceed (75% chance)
    • Deep Freeze (Moderate Cooldown) - Enemy must be given the 'frozen' effect for this combo to proceed (50% chance)
      • Hoarfrost (Low cooldown) or Glacial Spike (Moderate Cooldown) - Hoarfrost and Glacial Spike lead to different outcomes
The result of this combo is that the targeted enemy is slowed, then frozen solid and then shattered upon being hit by the finishing move. Once shattered, the enemy takes massive amount of damage, and all nearby enemies are hit by the ensuing ice blast, taking damage and getting a movement speed debuff.
 
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Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Last edited
it comes down to who can tap their abilities the first and fastest. We need to lower the cap on Expertise a bit, from 50% down to ~35%. This will allow spells to actually spend time refreshing rather than simply blinking on and off as they do now.
I think some changes on each individual feat is needed instead of just lowering expertise, since if expertise get lowered most feat that have very high cooldown will become really bad.
Spells could also be classified into different variants:
  • Fast Refresh / Low Damage
  • Moderate Refresh / Moderate Damage / Status Effect
  • Long Refresh / High Damage / Combo Affect
Other then classifying damage/cooldown, There also need a standardized damage and mana cost, because it makes some feat felt really bad
Combos: Combos are a series of attacks, that when done in the proper order can yield devastating results. I would like to see the introduction of combos within the game. Add a variety of sequence options and let players choose which combos they wish to utilize depending on the situation. Players have a limited time to perform the rest of the combo though after the initial ability is used. Using another spell in-between that isn't part of the combo will break the combo. These combos could connect together a few of the shorter and moderate cool-down spells and end the chain on one of the finisher long cooldown spells. That way these are less frequent, but quite useful for those who take advantage and line their ducks up in preparation for one.

Detonations are a prime example of a good combo! The problem is that it is simply too easy to produce, and occurs too frequently. It would be cool if it was on a cool-down or limited by the 'detonator's refresh (shadow orbs).
I like this idea, have suggested similar things in the past. A better example for the combo is fury warrior and it is the reason it is still my favorite class, using demoralize before whirlwind enable double whirlwind, applying slash and griffin strike before using phoenix strike, dragon strike, and brutal strike to increase their damages, using surging howl/Turn the tide, before Huzzah, demoralize and rally. Those small things do add up and make it fun to play with. I wish other class have those type of abilities too, which can make them more enjoyable to play.
 
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Alethrii

Citizen
Platform
iOS, Android, PC
Combos sound very interesting and I really like the idea of tactical gameplay, but to me, that really applies in group combat only. I'm worried that changing mechanics for better group dynamics may drastically hinder characters when they are solo, which can be the majority of the gameplay.

We need to lower the cap on Expertise a bit, from 50% down to ~35%. This will allow spells to actually spend time refreshing rather than simply blinking on and off as they do now.

I think this could be an issue as there have been posts as of late about DPS being too tanky and bringing that down a bit. How we are really sapposed to be the glass cannons. I actually completely agree! I don't want to tank, if I did, I would have picked a different class. But that being said, that means I survive by killing it before it gets to me 😛 Running in the Blighted Isles where bounties can be difficult on top of a zone debuff, cutting my expertise and increasing cool down will force me to rework my build into more of a "tank". If I'm not killing them first, then I have to redirect into my defense which I feel moves my character away from the high speed/damage from a distance, that a nature hunter should be.

I certainly don't think DPS should be tanking as we have tanks for this reason! But lessening DPS damage (D) or increasing cool down (S) moves us towards either glass BB guns or ineffective tanks.
 
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IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
If anything like the above is implemented then all bounties, elders, venerables hp and attacks would have to be rolled back too I'd think.

But it is true, to get anything done under the short time clocks we spam feats and they refresh.
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Do we really need healers anymore? Take a look at this:

This is the healing done by the priests during a Red Cloister Heroic Dungeon Run
1585352191973.png
Now this is the excess healing. Basically all the wasted healing because everyone was at full health
1585352246838.png

This is a lot of healing potential wasted. Thoughts?
 
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Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
Simple - it's players constantly spamming mass heal. So they are healing chars who aren't actually damaged. Just like the AoE distorting the threat generation chart. Mass heal is being counted as healing EVERY char in the group, even those who haven't taken any damage - hence that is mostly excess healing.

And it will continue indefinitely unless or until Devs re introduce that excess healing draws threat. (Now I'm off to hide before I get lynched for suggesting that.)
 

Kitty the Hunter

Adventurer
Platform
PC
Do we really need healers anymore? Take a look at this:

This is the healing done by the priests during a Red Cloister Heroic Dungeon Run
View attachment 6623
Now this is the excess healing. Basically all the wasted healing because everyone was at full health
View attachment 6624

This is a lot of healing potential wasted. Thoughts?
while both charts have to do with healing they really have nothing to do with each other. It would be impossible for a healer to micromanage heals to only heal exactly the amounts needed to exactly the specific players. We all know heals do not work like that. you can't prove anything definite with these charts.
 

Allison Wonderland

Priestess
Royal Guardian
Platform
PC
Last edited
I think a couple of things might be going on with healing. One is spamming mass heals and mass shields or casting over a mass heal or shield. I am not exactly sure how the charts calculate over healing or healing. Healing is a bit different that killing. Do the chart calculate how much wasted damage you do? When something is dead you don't do more damage. But if you heal you heal and it doesn't stop when you are full. I would love to be able to only dish out what is needed and give it when needed but healing doesn't work that way..It's all or nothing. So I give it all I got.

I ran once in party and purposely did not heal or shield anyone. On the charts it showed I had healed and also over healed.

My conclusion was Charts lie. And I don't believe a liar.
 
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