SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
With Grit, Poise, Flux and Glory, I can approach 375% ability power. It’s very situational, but it’s possible. Fully geared, with Poise, but without Grit/Flux/Glory, I have a ‘resting’ AP of about 190%... so I’m not too sure that having +100 is really all that much of a stretch.
hmm, I sit at 175 (in blight), how do you get to 190? 40 from talent points, less than 30 from mastery, then I thought poise is the only other place to get some "resting", you get more than +20% from poise? (my 23k poise is +10.5%, I guess I'd assumed 15% is the absolute max you can get if it follows the same curve as other stats) Where's your other source? (I guess +3% from boot rune)
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Yeah, unstable power is not overpowered if your shadow power is low: you get 40% chance to explode the DoTs. making DoTs (let's say gloom and shadow bolt) with 10-12 seconds duration have an effective duration of ~6 seconds (shadow orbs cooldown base is 8 seconds), so it's sort of about the same power as seasoned botanist, it just requires more button clicks and only 40% chance. (there is also a mention of 50% increase critical strike chance in the tooltip, so I assume that means if you had 20% crit chance, it goes to 30%, but never sure with those tooltips).
IMO the Unstable Power itself is okay, I just think it's overpowered as ultimate that cost 5 talent point, like if it just switch place with vampira that is way too weak for ultimate that cost 20 talent point, it will be good to go.
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
IMO the Unstable Power itself is okay, I just think it's overpowered as ultimate that cost 5 talent point, like if it just switch place with vampira that is way too weak for ultimate that cost 20 talent point, it will be good to go.
Big nerf for lvl 10-30 shadow priests, though :D.
 
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KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
IMO the Unstable Power itself is okay, I just think it's overpowered as ultimate that cost 5 talent point, like if it just switch place with vampira that is way too weak for ultimate that cost 20 talent point, it will be good to go.
Maybe it could work like the new Combust ultimate? Instead of a chance to detonate ALL DoTs, it could have a chance to detonate one DoT, and if successful, a chance to detonate another etc. up to 5 or so DoTs.
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Big nerf for lvl 10-30 shadow priests, though :D.
may be but not really since at that level most of the time you only have 3 feat, so not that many feat to detonate and feat like gloom will still have similar duration with the cooldown so detonating things isn't that powerful anyway at that point of the game. That changes target hybrid instead, which make hybrid priest a bit harder to built around

Maybe it could work like the new Combust ultimate? Instead of a chance to detonate ALL DoTs, it could have a chance to detonate one DoT, and if successful, a chance to detonate another etc. up to 5 or so DoTs.
Isn't that how it works right now? it's 40% but on each not all so you might only explode 1 or 2 not all of them at the same time all the time
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
may be but not really since at that level most of the time you only have 3 feat, so not that many feat to detonate and feat like gloom will still have similar duration with the cooldown so detonating things isn't that powerful anyway at that point of the game. That changes target hybrid instead, which make hybrid priest a bit harder to built around


Isn't that how it works right now? it's 40% but on each not all so you might only explode 1 or 2 not all of them at the same time all the time
I think it detonates all of them, but I am not at home to test and confirm. Maybe someone can?
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
I think it detonates all of them, but I am not at home to test and confirm. Maybe someone can?
Just checked again too make sure, It doesn't detonate everything all the time.
 

Zazie

BRA Member
Royal Guardian
Characters
Zazie, Shiny, Skip, Auntie
Platform
PC
Just checked again too make sure, It doesn't detonate everything all the time.
Corrupting plague rarely detonates, and contagion doesn't always detonate. The two feats that most often do detonate are gloom and shadow bolt (and no, I do not use darkfrost, so I don't know how often that one detonates.)
 

Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
hmm, I sit at 175 (in blight), how do you get to 190? 40 from talent points, less than 30 from mastery, then I thought poise is the only other place to get some "resting", you get more than +20% from poise? (my 23k poise is +10.5%, I guess I'd assumed 15% is the absolute max you can get if it follows the same curve as other stats) Where's your other source? (I guess +3% from boot rune)
I’m not able to get in-game at the moment to give you a real breakdown, but I get more of mine from Flux. I don’t remember off the top of my head, but I think my Poise might be slightly above yours (maybe 1k pts). Most of my extra mastery comes from gloves and wep (where I have lvl 99 mastery reinforcing runes)
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Corrupting plague rarely detonates, and contagion doesn't always detonate. The two feats that most often do detonate are gloom and shadow bolt (and no, I do not use darkfrost, so I don't know how often that one detonates.)
Darkfrost is not DoT so it doesn't detonate
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
Yeah, as far as I know, it's the same chance and then calculated for each DoT separately. I have had "all 4" (gloom, shadow bolt, corrupting plague, and vile echoes) detonate, and I've had none, and I can confirm I've had 2 and 3 explode. I have never witnessed having 2 DoTs up and exploding only 1, but it seems likely that could happen given I've observed all other possible combinations :D.

I haven't tried with contagion.
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
may be but not really since at that level most of the time you only have 3 feat, so not that many feat to detonate and feat like gloom will still have similar duration with the cooldown so detonating things isn't that powerful anyway at that point of the game. That changes target hybrid instead, which make hybrid priest a bit harder to built around


Isn't that how it works right now? it's 40% but on each not all so you might only explode 1 or 2 not all of them at the same time all the time
Sprig's build has 25 "leftover" points if he doesn't take unstable power, so you'd need to hide it in a 30-pointer if your goal is specifically to nerf hybrid priests. :D (btw, US2 doesn't have a single other powerful hybrid priest at cap, do other servers have some?)

I think you'd be much better off limiting the maximum % chance of the explode (70% perhaps?). This would affect only top-end players/dungeon runners, etc, and not affect most of the game. (this being if we are seeing shadow priests dominating, which I am guessing they might, but not sure if they really will, as other classes have some great abilities I don't understand the math for)

And for nerfing high level hybrids in general, see my post about making some skills "2-slot" abilities.

It seems, though, we're just running from topic to topic on annecdotal evidence. "On server X, there's a powerful fire wizard" -> nerf wizard, "On server Y, there's a powerful shadow priest" -> nerf priest. To me, there's just not enough examples for me to make a good decision on that kind of stuff.
Back when US2 started running the l95 elders, we had a team of 5 DPS chart looked like this:
Super (mostly nature?) hunter - 26%
Super Shadow Priest - 22%
Sprig - 20%
Super hybrid warrior - 20%
Lightning warrior <-- held aggro if DPS blinked for a second - 12%, always had aggro on Hox, as he'd start there while we killed minions.

TBH, that's not too bad when looking at balance class to class. With the buff to lightning warrior threat, I bet that tank could hold aggro always.

If we see a trend of certain classes with many different players completely dominating all the time (and not being 20% higher, but 50%+), then it makes sense for us to react (like with plaguelord).

So, I think the class to class balance is OK (no shaman or wizard example in there, but I think other servers have provided fine shaman and wizard examples). It might not be perfect, so some tweaks could be fine I'm sure. I think the things about reducing gap based on skill level and stuff is probably better to look at. Maaaybe nerfing some of the top abilities, but that gets tricky as sometimes the lower players are using the best abilities just fine, but not like Giruv points out able to mash the keys for all the "side abilities" fast enough.
 

IoOvOo

Wizard
Characters
loOvOo
Platform
Android, PC
Last edited
Here comes a wizard😉
Level 95 wizard from EU1, hybrid currently.
Most of my answers will be from a wizard's perspect. I'm answering this during the sugarsweet event, after some changes for lightning and earth.
Hope my terrible grammar and spelling wouldn't bother u.
What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 1 to 40?
Since this part had been changed in E&S build, I have only gone through it with my earth shaman. Zones with groups of enemies would be a great chanllenge for new players to solo who reach there the first time, and it's even kinda difficult for experienced players without using sockets. These zones increase the difficulty suddenly which isn't a good idea for early game. Other zones are kinda easy. And they should be easy imo, coz It's the time for players to enjoy the storyline and get familiar with the game.
What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 40 to 55 (Traven)?
Well-balanced, just needs some main quests:ROFLMAO:
What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 55 to 75 (Pyrron)?
This could be the most difficult part for solo players (maybe not for wizards or nature hunters though), but the combat here are well-designed so that it also could be the best place for a player to learn about how to deal with groups of enemies or elite enemies, as well as how to choose and use spells and feats. However, zones with similar environments and enemies may make this part kinda boring until keppel cavern. I think adding some transitional zones before pyrron would help players to get used to the difficulty more smoothly.
What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 75 to 90?
Hard to say. Bevyn to tomb are well-designed with proper difficulty and introducing new mechanisms. From the Rye to Zorian Marshlands, these zones are too easy except Gortin and only Gortin actually introduced something new. It's boring to grind them again and again. The design of combat makes these beautiful zones less attractive to me.
What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 90 to 95 (Blighted Isles)?
I like this part! Only thing I don't like is that there tooooooo many bounties in a single zone. And it would be more interesting if bounties here can have more different abilities.
Do you feel that content which is scaled and accessible for all players (Dungeons / Event Zones) is balanced well?
As far as I know, the scaling system only changes some of the stats like health points, armor, magic resist, and spell damage. But chars with more talent points can be much stronger than lower lvl chars. And most players won't spend time getting good gears in early game, which makes the gap even larger.
Do you feel that we have a good variety of difficulty levels for content? (Solo, Casual Group, Organized Group, Organized Elite Group, etc.)
Solo most of time. Casual group for tomb or elders. Organized elite group for dungeons or elders lv95. Organized group? Maybe for rift or elders lv85? Not sure about this question.
At what difficulty do you have the most enjoyment when solo?
At what difficulty do you have the most enjoyment when grouped?

Well, too hard to answer...I like challenges lol.

Do you feel that numbers [health, damage...] scale too far at higher levels?
Yes. The curve looks weird to me.
Do you feel that certain stats are too powerful compared to others, or that certain stats are underpowered?
Vigor, will and intelligence are obviously underpowered, especially vigor. Vitality is too powerful for always add 4 health point per vitality. There should be a cap like other stats imo.
For epic stats, glory is too powerful compared to others. It boost both offense and defense a lot when having 5 stacks which are easy to get anywhere u need them (I think u don't need them when just dealing with event zones:ROFLMAO:).
Shielding needs a redesign, it's not only underpowered but also boring now.
Do you feel that certain abilities are too powerful compared to others, or that certain abilities are underpowered?
For wizard:
Crystallize...I haven't used this for a long time. Even for a pure ice wiz after mind spark got changed, I would rather keep mind spark on necklace.
Inner fire is pointless too. As I said will is underpowered, so why waste a slot for a spell only increasing an underpowered stat?
Manafire may be the spell that is too powerful when being used with arcane aclarity.
Besides, brutal force and zephyr's enclave are much more useful than others on trinkets.
Do you feel that certain talents are too powerful compared to others, or that certain talents are underpowered?
Also For wizard:
Thermal shell and frost dominace! Plz tell me how to make them useful.
Do you feel that certain buffs / boosts are too powerful compared to others, or that certain buffs / boosts are underpowered?
Not a fan of buffs and boosts, but I think mana potions are op while health potions don't change anything (u still die lol).
Do you feel that the current options for measuring your build (attack / defense rating) are accurate?
Not that accurate. For example, life regen in defense rating doesn't mean anythin, and it's too easy to get 2.0 in max health. But the rating does help a bit.
Do you feel that combat is too fast paced?
Fine for me.
Do you feel that the difference in performance due to a player's build choices are too wide?

Yes. I think the talents of each sub-class should be balanced as well as classes, so that various builds for same class can perform similarly.
Do you feel that gear and builds are too complicated to understand?
Nope. That's the most enjoyable part in rpg for me.
Do you feel that RNG makes it difficult to create your desired setup?
Yeeeees, especially when the powerful stat brutality can only be found on dropped gears, but there is always blasting or berserk lol.
Do you feel that it is too costly to create your desired setup?
No. Maybe for time, yes.
Do you feel that Elder Levels are balanced?
Elder levels make little difference only.
Do you feel that players can become TOO powerful?

Yes. If u choose the right class and build ur character perfectly, u can solo everything. That's TOO powerful for a mmorpg.

If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much damage output they should have, how would you rank them?
#1 Nature hunter (single), shadow priest (over time), fire wizard (AoE)
#2 Ice wizard (burst dmg), Fury warrior, Marksman hunter
#3 Others
If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much threat output they should have, how would you rank them?
#1 Lightning for single target, earth for group
#2 others
If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much healing output they should have, how would you rank them?
#1 water shaman
#2 holy priest (make the shield more effective plz, otherwise same healing as water)
#3 others
Do you feel that classes are able to fulfill their primary roles [Tank, DPS, Support] in group content?
Healers, always yes.
Tanks after the new build, yes.
DPS, only some of them.
Do you feel that tanks are needed?
Tanks help, but aren't necessary, especially in late game. I mean, I like the idea that every class can choose their own role, but only one role at the same time. In that case, tanks are needed, though maybe not lightning or earth.
Do you feel that healers / support are needed?
Only one is enough for anything.
Do you feel that damage dealers are needed?
We always need damage dealers, but not all damage dealers are needed. On EU1, it seems nature hunters are only needed lol.
Do you feel that certain sub-classes are too powerful if built a specific way?
Yes. try shadow priest.
Do you feel that certain sub-classes are underpowered for their role?
Marksman are the most underpowered, then pure ice wizard. Fury warrior can be powerful when using warcry build, but they are still underpowered for their role imo.
Do you feel that certain hybrid builds are too powerful?
Again, try shadow priest, and mix some holy :ROFLMAO:
 
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Erwalt

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Lightning warrior <-- held aggro if DPS blinked for a second - 12%, always had aggro on Hox, as he'd start there while we killed minions.
And that's the reason lightning actually never had a problem keeping aggro. The problem was always with the dps popping trinkets and going full out the moment the fight starts.

The solution to this whole thread is actually fairly simple - put mana potions on 2 - 3 min cd. This won't affect solo play at all!

The only reason wiz/hunt can take hits atm is because of some pocket healer behind them, their self healing just can't keep up with the incoming damage (as it should be), this is not a problem for a tank because of his blocking. And the reason a healer can keep up tossing millions of heals on some naked dps is his limitless mana pool.

Putting fairly big cd on pots will make:
- healers having to make a choice to go for an attack or to save some mana for an extra heal; having to save cure to actually cure something; not spamming heals all over the place; leave dps to die if they pull the aggro as keeping it up requires +100% more healing than supporting a tank. This would also encourage 2 priests working together, not overstacking shields and mass heals.
- tanks will have the most mana in this scenario because their block reduction will refresh mana regen feats fast enough
- dps will have to change builds to be more mana friendly and actually start watching the tank and understand what he's doing (going full damage only when the tank is going full out)

Would also be great to bring warriors' threat generation numbers back to those 1st days of Starfall (lowest ever) to make fights interesting. Dps would have to start using those nice threat reduction tools instead of mastery boosters in group fights (for non hybrid build using the threat reduction one actually lowers dps for less than 0,1% and using it just before your hard hitters and aligning it with tank's hard hitters makes you build almost no threat at all and completely nullifies those sudden threat spikes).
 

Arjuna

Grand Priest
Characters
Arjuna, Lord Villian
Platform
Android
The solution to this whole thread is actually fairly simple - put mana potions on 2 - 3 min cd. This won't affect solo play at all!
Wow, it's kind of crazy that this whole balance conversation could be resolved by nerfing Mana pots. 2-3 min sounds kind of long though!
 

IoOvOo

Wizard
Characters
loOvOo
Platform
Android, PC
So, I think the class to class balance is OK (no shaman or wizard example in there, but I think other servers have provided fine shaman and wizard examples).
After devs changed Poison shot into Noxious shot in plague lord, top Nature hunters no longer deal as twice dmg as wizards (fire or hybrid) deal. But still we can hardly catch up with nature hunters. Shadow priests are very rare on EU1.
Weird thing is that now for single target damage, Lightning warriors are becoming similar to wizards. I'm afraid about devs forgot that increasing threat output of lightning would result in more damage output at the same time, because of the talents :ROFLMAO:
Not sure about things above, it hasn't been long enough since the new build release...
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
And that's the reason lightning actually never had a problem keeping aggro. The problem was always with the dps popping trinkets and going full out the moment the fight starts.

The solution to this whole thread is actually fairly simple - put mana potions on 2 - 3 min cd. This won't affect solo play at all!

The only reason wiz/hunt can take hits atm is because of some pocket healer behind them, their self healing just can't keep up with the incoming damage (as it should be), this is not a problem for a tank because of his blocking. And the reason a healer can keep up tossing millions of heals on some naked dps is his limitless mana pool.

Putting fairly big cd on pots will make:
- healers having to make a choice to go for an attack or to save some mana for an extra heal; having to save cure to actually cure something; not spamming heals all over the place; leave dps to die if they pull the aggro as keeping it up requires +100% more healing than supporting a tank. This would also encourage 2 priests working together, not overstacking shields and mass heals.
- tanks will have the most mana in this scenario because their block reduction will refresh mana regen feats fast enough
- dps will have to change builds to be more mana friendly and actually start watching the tank and understand what he's doing (going full damage only when the tank is going full out)

Would also be great to bring warriors' threat generation numbers back to those 1st days of Starfall (lowest ever) to make fights interesting. Dps would have to start using those nice threat reduction tools instead of mastery boosters in group fights (for non hybrid build using the threat reduction one actually lowers dps for less than 0,1% and using it just before your hard hitters and aligning it with tank's hard hitters makes you build almost no threat at all and completely nullifies those sudden threat spikes).
Wow, it's kind of crazy that this whole balance conversation could be resolved by nerfing Mana pots. 2-3 min sounds kind of long though!
Maybe a 30 - 45 second cooldown? That way the effect can be kept running throughout most of the fight. The problem is the insant mana portion of the potion. Players can spam mana pots to get back to full mana very quickly due to that.
 
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Erwalt

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Maybe a 30 - 45 second cooldown? That way the effect can be kept running throughout most of the fight
Think anything less than 2 min would just be insufficient tbh.
Mana pot runs for 30 sec so you'd be for 1m30s without it, that where the planning comes in and the choice of trinkets. Instant portion of the pot I'd keep, as it refills % od the missing mana pool so it would just add another thing to calculate - to go for it in the beginning and lose the instant part, or save it for later on where the instant part is higher.

This would slow down the combat speed and make every feat matters. You'd have to think twice weather to push aoe or 2 single target feats in a given moment to maximize your dps with a limited mana pool. With some adjusting different builds will come up (bigger mana pool, more regen, more trinket options) but it would stop key mashing. It would prevent overstacking dots as well as you'd want ti utilize every single tick of dot.
Ofc, lvl 95 elders and dungeon bosses would need some hp nerf in this scenario.
 

Math Fish

Squirrel
Characters
Math Fish, Shama Fisha
Platform
Steam
Hope my terrible grammar and spelling wouldn't bother u.
I've graded high school English papers: I've seen much worse. ;)
Do you feel that certain sub-classes are underpowered for their role?
Marksman are the most underpowered, then pure ice wizard. Fury warrior can be powerful when using warcry build, but they are still underpowered for their role imo.
Well, this might explain a few things. lol
If I'm supposed to be a DPS like every other DPS, then I am a little underpowered (just a little). I finally got to run Gortrin and the dungeon with my 86 bow at level 87. Gortrin was a royal pain in the a ... neck; the dungeon run was somewhat disappointing: my damage was about the same as it was when I hit level 81, but I was using a maxed bow this time. I need to run with V's other toon to see what happens.
The solution to this whole thread is actually fairly simple - put mana potions on 2 - 3 min cd. This won't affect solo play at all!
Maybe a 30 - 45 second cooldown? That way the effect can be kept running throughout most of the fight. The problem is the insant mana portion of the potion. Players can spam mana pots to get back to full mana very quickly due to that.
Whether the mana potions (as they currently are) go on a shorter or longer cooldown depends entirely on whether the problem is the constant 1000/30 = 33.3 (HOLY CRAP!) mana regen or the immediate 10% (?) mana restoration. Given that none of the top DPS players seem to be going for Intellect, I seriously doubt (initially) that the immediate boost is the problem. Then we consider using 100-150 mana potions in a 15 minute period. That's 10-15x a player's mana pool restored over the course of the run if used optimally. So we have a fixed 30,000 mana restored from having the potions active over 15 minutes plus 10-15x the player's mana pool from popping the potions (or 30,000-45,000 assuming a 3,000 mana pool). This gives us a total mana restoration of 60,000-75,000 mana over 15 minutes (assuming extreme values). Ima do some calculations and put a table here:

Cooldown of Mana PotionNumber of Mana Potions ConsumedInstant ManaMana over TimeMax Mana RestoredAmount of Max Mana Restored in 15 minutesNerf to 150 PotsNerf to 100 Pots
615045000300007500025x0%N/A
910030000300006000020x20%0%
156018000300004800016x36%20%
30309000300003900013x48%35%
6015450015000195006.5x74%67.5%
9010300010000130004 1/3x82 2/3%78 1/3%
1207.52250750097503.25x87%83.75%
15061800600078002.6x89.6%87%
18051500500065002 1/6x91 1/3%89 1/6%

And this is only considering IN-COMBAT mana restoration. Based on what I've been hearing, anything above 6-9 seconds will be a SERIOUS NERF for anyone drinking 100-150 mana potions in 15 minutes. We must seriously consider that there is a direct correlation between mana restored and damage dealt. For a min/max player, the 35-48% nerf suggested by the 30 second cooldown will result in roughly the same nerf to ability damage from those players. Personally, I am somewhere between the 5-6 mana potion per run crowd with my maxed out bow. Granted, I also have the full restore from my knife and use a Scornyx or 2 per run. Without those I would probably be in the 15-30 pots per run crowd (30-60 second cooldown on mana potions).

My initial suggestion is to do two things (in sequence, incrementally, or altogether ... doesn't matter):
  • Make the mana potion have a cooldown of 30 seconds (number changes to the list below can be made for 60 seconds ... wouldn't recommend anything above that). Allow the players to use the potions before then, but introduce a "mana sickness" debuff that counteracts the usage of the potion. The potion can have any of the following effects (subject to debate, number changes, and other stuff I couldn't think of in 10 minutes):
    • You no longer can receive instant mana restoration (lasts 40 seconds; includes Half Mana, Full Mana, and Scornyx)
    • Every ability used has a 5-10% chance to stun you for 3-4 seconds (lasts 30 seconds)
    • All abilities and feats have increased mana cost: +10%/stack (lasts 90 seconds; stacks, but duration is not refreshed)
    • Threat output and damage taken are increased: 2%/stack (lasts 15 minutes; stacks, but duration is not refreshed)
    • All stats reduced by 1%/stack (lasts 1 minute; stacks additively and duration is refreshed)
  • Make the effectiveness of mana potions degrade as a player levels more than 4 levels beyond the potion level.
This should have all the desired effects, bring mana potions above level 3 back into the market, and hardly affect casual play at all (they don't use mana potions that often anyway lol)
 

ripcord

Wizard
Platform
iOS
Your chart isn’t quite right. It is 1000 mana instantly, regardless of pot level and I believe it’s 3000 mana (probably some % of your mana but I can’t verify right now) after that over time OUT of combat or 1/3 of that, so 1000 mana, over the same amount of time if in combat. This rate appears to be dynamic so it’s not like you can pop a mana pot before combat and expect to get the out of combat rate if the mana pot is active when you enter combat.

I don’t have enough experience to wade into how mana pots affect balance but I don’t think that making people mana starved will be fun at all. Maybe the changes you suggest won’t, but I can say that waiting 3 mins for something in this game is a very long time IMO.
 
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