Math Fish

Squirrel
Characters
Math Fish, Shama Fisha
Platform
Steam
Most, if not all, the evidence for needing to adjust the classes stems from dungeons and high/maxed players, usually with heavy investments in their toons. Instead of making drastic changes to the entire combat and class systems, lets look at these areas of content first.
I agree Kitty, and let's not forget a good proportion of players never run dungeons from choice. I don't pretend to understand all dungeon mechanics but it seems sensible to look there first.
There is an extensive discussion on exactly this here, as I know at least Kitty is aware. Could you give your input of what you think could be done with dungeons (in the form of "interesting buffs")?

So I have a question. In doing an elder run I pulled up charts. I noticed the only toon that showed in "threat output" was a hunter. Any thoughts why that is when there were at least 5 warriors in the group?
It depends on whether this is before or after the event started. In both cases, they just have the potential to do a LOT of damage ... and damage increases threat quite well.
  • If it was before the event, then it was the Plaguelord thing that is being looked into here.
  • If it was after the event started, then Nature Hunters still can do a lot of damage and hit the top of the charts depending on who is present. I (and Kave?) would like to see any information you may have about this as I want to provide some feedback about the recent changes.
  • If it is a Marksman, then ... quite frankly I would be quite shocked. If it happens to be me at the event zone (I've been #1 on threat output numerous times in the event) then there are a lot of casual players there and I currently do insane damage for my level (level 86 now :D).
 

Kitty the Hunter

Adventurer
Platform
PC
There is an extensive discussion on exactly this here, as I know at least Kitty is aware. Could you give your input of what you think could be done with dungeons (in the form of "interesting buffs")?
That thread is all about buffs and changes to dungeons to help improve them for players. This thread already has much to discuss and consider and I don't want to go off topic. Also, whatever would be decided for dungeons would not necessarily be good for the rest of the game.
 
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KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
So I have a question. In doing an elder run I pulled up charts. I noticed the only toon that showed in "threat output" was a hunter. Any thoughts why that is when there were at least 5 warriors in the group?
Threat charts clear out very fast. So if you pulled the charts up after the fight, chances are the data was already wiped.
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
Threat charts clear out very fast. So if you pulled the charts up after the fight, chances are the data was already wiped.
It was this week and I believe it was right after a mob/boss fight and through the next grouping up to the elder. The hunter is nature.

I did not know they clear fast so I'll keep a better eye on it.
 

Halleebell

Squirrel
Characters
Hallee/Freyra
Platform
iOS, PC
It was this week and I believe it was right after a mob/boss fight and through the next grouping up to the elder. The hunter is nature.

I did not know they clear fast so I'll keep a better eye on it.
Hmm Iv noticed from the times Iv caught something on threat it was a hunter. But if a warrior “holds threat” shouldn’t they be on the board as well? Or is the threat chart not really about threat(feats with threat output) but about the amount of damage you do to A boss which in turn makes you the biggest threat to the boss?
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
Threat "decays" even during a fight, and is wiped right after potentially. All characters generate threat, so you'll see everyone shown on a "legit" threat chart. You'd have to have it on during the fight, though, each time you kill a mob, the threat dies with it. I can't explain the random bits of threat that get shown sometimes, though!
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
So if someone shows 100% threat? And no one else is on the list immediately following an all out fight?
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
So if someone shows 100% threat? And no one else is on the list immediately following an all out fight?
I can't say exactly how it decides to do stuff after a fight.

I know that when I have the chart open DURING the fight, it seems to be accurate. After, it seems to have a mind of its own. Sometimes, it seems to stay until I start attacking the next monster, sometimes other stuff, but clearly if it's not listing anyone else, it's not accurate. Everyone who does damage will show on the threat output chart.
 
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Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Last edited
Sorry, but if any one build is able to Tank, Heal and be one of the top damage dealers at the same time it doesn't increase the number of viable builds at all. In fact, it reduces them. We see that now with tanks being useless for 95 Elders. DPS can hold aggro better and take the damage without dying. And I'm not just talking about priest hybrids. I've seen fury warriors, shadow priests and fire / ice wizards all tank the 95s or Dungeons and do fine. They usually get gold since having a tank along just lowers the group's damage anyway.
On some case it the built fault, that most class have some really good and some really bad feat/talent, but personally I found that it is more about the content fault not the character built fault. As I've mentioned before, there are no content that need a super tanky warrior, there are no content where the priest have to bring out all of their healing kit, which make the versatile middle ground built (hybrid) for warrior and priest always the way to go for maximized built.

I usually built my warrior by bringing him to the hardest boss in game (IMO Josephine) and then adjust my built until i can tank her without priest, and then dump everything else on my offensive ability. And when doing that I still have lots of defensive capabilities in the arsenal that I don't use.
 

Leizong

Legendary Hero
Platform
Android, PC
说实话我不觉得讨论,职业平衡有什么意义,作为一个没有pvp的游戏,每次更新都会有一些强力职业突出,开发商应该综合评估每个职业的玩家数量。如果某一个职业选择的人数很稀少,我觉得应该通过加强这个职业来吸引更多的玩家。我不觉得把每一个dps都拉到一个水平是件好事。每个职业应该有它自己的优势和特色。如果这是一个pvp游戏,我完全赞成上面的观点,但是这是一个pve游戏,当每个职业都变的平庸,我相信没有人愿意体验新的职业。我觉得我们的游戏应该走的路线是:不断推出新的坐骑和时装以及宠物,创造新的玩法,让那些丢失的玩家再次回来。而不是在一个没有pvp的游戏里讨论职业平衡,以上就是的我一些想法。
 
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Math Fish

Squirrel
Characters
Math Fish, Shama Fisha
Platform
Steam
说实话我不觉得讨论,职业平衡有什么意义,作为一个没有pvp的游戏,每次更新都会有一些强力职业突出,开发商应该综合评估每个职业的玩家数量。如果某一个职业选择的人数很稀少,我觉得应该通过加强这个职业来吸引更多的玩家。我不觉得把每一个dps都拉到一个水平是件好事。每个职业应该有它自己的优势和特色。如果这是一个pvp游戏,我完全赞成上面的观点,但是这是一个pve游戏,当每个职业都变的平庸,我相信没有人愿意体验新的职业。我觉得我们的游戏应该走的路线是:不断推出新的坐骑和时装以及宠物,创造新的玩法,让那些丢失的玩家再次回来。而不是在一个没有pvp的游戏里讨论职业平衡,以上就是的我一些想法。
Do you feel that certain abilities are too powerful compared to others, or that certain abilities are underpowered?
Oh dear lord, where do I even begin with this ...
I won't - because starting this discussion will only lead to pvp and I don't want anything to do with it.
This is my greatest concern whenever we go into discussions of dungeons, elite content, balancing, OP builds, and so on. If I start talking about, for example, how Murder for the Marksman Hunter is pretty much worthless as an ability until level 95 because literally every other ability I have (including aoe) does more damage ... I am encouraging the type of balancing that a pvp game would engage in. If, instead, I say that I feel abilities other than True Shot, Slowing Shot, and Splinter Shot are considerably weaker due to the 4 level boost in crafted runes ... I am encouraging the developers to look into changing how dropped runes work instead. Rather than change the abilities, they can, for example, have runes on Uncommon/Rare/Epic/Legendary drops have runes that are 1/2/3/4 levels above the weapon's level.

This is also why I try to make my suggestions stay in line with what I love about this game: PvE, the ability for everyone to solo the main story but still contribute to groups in some way, engaging battles that aren't all about "shoot a thing for 5 minutes until it dies".

Most, if not all, the evidence for needing to adjust the classes stems from dungeons and high/maxed players, usually with heavy investments in their toons. Instead of making drastic changes to the entire combat and class systems, lets look at these areas of content first.
I'd say most. I have said before that my build has consistently done at least twice every other Marksman I know (except ToughKitty and, I think, Katniss ... if they are Marksman). This has been true ever since I started Pyrron when I started properly building my character (not min/max, but good). Also, my damage in the charts within scaled areas has been steadily increasing as I've leveled up, and I've changed nothing about my build since the beginning of Pyrron except more talent points (until now ... I made a maxed level 86 bow using the event sockets :D).
The "doing double damage" part is a build thing, which literally anyone can do if they choose the same talents as me. The "steadily increasing damage" part is an imbalance of scaling, which makes already stronger characters even stronger. The need to give something to players that have played a long time will only come into play when those maxed out players join in on group content. If it is specifically them that is the problem, then we need to look at them rather than trying to fix everything else that isn't a problem. Otherwise, we have a legitimate problem of balance that needs to be looked into, at the very least.
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Last edited
On some case it the built fault, that most class have some really good and some really bad feat/talent, but personally I found that it is more about the content fault not the character built fault. As I've mentioned before, there are no content that need a super tanky warrior, there are no content where the priest have to bring out all of their healing kit, which make the versatile middle ground built (hybrid) for warrior and priest always the way to go for maximized built.

I usually built my warrior by bringing him to the hardest boss in game (IMO Josephine) and then adjust my built until i can tank her without priest, and then dump everything else on my offensive ability. And when doing that I still have lots of defensive capabilities in the arsenal that I don't use.
I feel that we both see similar problems but are coming at it from different approaches.

The issue I find with making tougher content which requires an actual tank is that most tankes need to be built offensively in order to be able to hold aggro. If we can't hold aggro now over the top DPSs, how will we do it then?

Also, the lack of diminishing returns on health makes it the ideal buffer for DPS classes to tank just as effectively, but in a different manner. With a solid priest and large health pool, DPS will be able to tank it, especially since they cut the fight duration into a fraction.

No matter how hard content is (we thought HoS was hard, but Sprig solo'd it), it is proven that people will be able to rise to the challenge and match or overcome it. I don't think changing content will have any effect.

Instead, a few simple stat tweaks and ability fixes could solve the problem.

Cut the caps for Savagery, Brutality and Expertise. Reduce the damage output from a few of the very high powered abilities like Mana Fire, Shadow Orbs, the new Fire Ultimate which modifies combust etc. Each of these can be adjusted slightly for balance (slight duration or mana tweaks, or remove secondary modifiers such as the extra crit chance on shadow orbs). Then look at some of the talents that buff stats and perhaps change them to something which is actually interesting and dynamic. Something that adds new combinations or chains and requires tactics rather than just pumping points into critical strike stats.

Let me put it into a different perspective. If we took the bottom 3/4 DPS players from the damage charts, and made them re-run the 95s or Dungeons without the top 1/4 damage dealers, what would happen? They might not even finish in time. So, how can we say that content difficulty is the problem when it relies on certain top damage dealers to carry the masses on their shoulders? By making content harder the only people you'll be hurting are the ones at the bottom. They will be forced to rely on the elites or rebuild themselves after the holy trinity of stats (savagery, brutality, expertise). By cutting the caps it is the people at the top who will take the brunt of it, not those at the bottom. It'll even the scales and create more viable builds. Builds for sustain or well-rounded characters will be near or as good as crit builds.
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
Cut the caps for Savagery, Brutality and Expertise.
If you cut caps for these, then there will be more stat points for DPS to put into defenses.

The people who will "suffer" will be people who don't understand the math of diminishing returns and continue to overinvest in the stat. Maybe putting a "hard cap" would prevent people from doing that.

I think the caps one reason reducing the differentiation of classes. A DPS class can get around 40k in magic resist without pushing too hard. That's 44% protection. A tank class has abilities that provide more armor/magic resist than the DPS class's abilities and can hit a higher number (I dunno, 50k, 60k? ) without pushing too hard. I know 55k is only 3% more protection than 40k. I'd assume 60k is less than 4% more protection than 40k. Due to this, tanks (mostly) don't have more defenses than other classes. If we want differentiation of the classes stats-wise, then the caps/diminishing returns would need to be adjusted in some sort of upward manner.

(Admittedly, tanks do get a few other abilities to improve tankiness like increased dodge/block/parry/more HP that are outside of stats.)

I don't get the fixation on savage/brut :D. (The Thorncrest origin, that's what should be nerfed :D.)

20k in the stat gives over 60% of the benefit (about +13% crit chance). 30k gives around 80% of the benefit of the stat (about +16% crit chance). at lvl 95, 20k should be easily reachable That's (very roughly) the stat on 2 out of the 6 possible pieces of gear, the glove prep, and 2 reinforcement runes. The base crit chance is 2% and then +4% from thorncrest origin (yuck! Why'd they make that so powerful!).

So, someone who puts more investment to get higher savagery is going from 19% crit chance to 22% crit chance. (assuming 30k brutality and the +25% more thorncrest origin, you're at around 300%, so each crit is +2 other attacks) When calculating average damage, I look at it as 1 + (0.19crit chance*2 brutality) = 1.38 vs. 1.44. 1.44/1.38 = 4%.

Whatever we are trying to do, this 4% increase in damage over someone else seems like it is not the biggest thing. (That's not a 4% number on a damage chart. If someone was 10% on the chart, the person with 10k more savagery from 20k-30k would be 10.4%.)

So, someone who is uninformed in how stats work (which was me for many years!) may end up with no savagery/brutality investment, or someone leveling so fast they don't care about their gear, but anyone trying at all can make it to "20k" (or whatever the 20k is for their level). Pumping savagery to 40k gets you +17.6% crit chance, 55k would be +18.8%.

Doing the same exercise on the +18.8%, we see 19% (for 20k investment), 24.8% (for 55k investment), that's less than a 9% difference for climbing up the scale. (so, 10% on damage chart for person 1, and 10.9% for person 2)

I think people who are trying are far more likely to fall into a mistake of overinvesting (since you have to do the math (or pay attention to the little chevrons) to avoid overinvesting) rather than underinvesting (since that is simply not paying any attention to your gear).

Admittedly savage + brut are complimentary, and same with ability power adding in.

Your base damage * (1+0.ability power) * (1 + (0.crit rate * (brutality - 100)/100)) = damage avg. So, if you take a character at 20k in all 3 of those, and then compare to someone in 30k in all 3, you get a wider gulf.

20k in all 3 : 2.12
30k in all 3: 2.34 (10.5% increase over 20k in all 3)
55k in all 3: 2.58 (21.7% increase over 20k in all 3) (is 55k in all 3 even possible? :D Probably, but I've never been close to that high :D)

But, even this wider gulf (and with HUGE investment difference!) is the difference between someone doing 10% of damage on the chart and someone doing 12% of damage on the chart.

I do not think the "performance gap" problem can be solved by modification of the balance of the stats in the current paradigm. (perhaps a complete overhaul of some sort could do something, but I would argue more in favor of making stats more of a difference so the best strategy isn't "try to get close to 30k in all stats except will/vigor/intellect".)

I was thinking of another idea last week: the reason I went hybrid was because Holy didn't have enough good abilities. Holy Bolt, Smite, heal, Cure <- all good numerically.
divine hammer, mass heal, mass shield <- all weak numerically.
Bless<- actually pretty good in a pinch, but the longer cooldown makes it weaker "overall"
This is fine while levelling up. the "utility" spell like divine hammer (and I'm sure other specs have similar) is quite useful, and you're not socketting all 7 slots anyways.

If you buffed all of the numbers on these skills, it'd be too strong. It's like the devs did a similar diminishing returns thing in socketting out the gear... however, shadow priest has the same:
Shadow Bolt, Gloom <- very strong numerically
Shadow orbs <- meh numerically on its own, but useful for exploding the dots ability: unstable power
Shadow Blast, darkfrost, corrupting plague <- weak numerically, situationally useful
Vampiric pact <- verrry weak for the mana part, but people who want to avoid socketting a holy spell can use it combine with a lot of talent points for healing while levelling up.

So, you take all this stuff, (and presumably other classes have similar), and with 7 slots, you can now get 6 solid attack spells!

If we say we don't want to make hybrid impossible and we don't want to nerf healer/tank out of existence on damage, then what if we made the cost of equiping two "Good" abilities higher? Let's say you made holy bolt 2 "socket slots" (while only costing one socket to load it) and made shadow bolt the same. Now, Sprig's awesome mace would need to drop 2 spells. He couldn't get "the best of both worlds" entirely. Maybe increase active "socket slots" to 8 on the weapon and then make a few of these really powerful "bread and butter" spells use 2 slots (without increasing socket cost of slotting them), and then longer cooldown, situationally useful utility spells (like judgement (priest elder AoE stun on) or divine hammer) that are weak numerically take only 1 slot.

I think this, or variations on this, could reduce certain hybrid super-power. (but, that could be a lot of game development effort for a kind of small benefit overall. I myself would rather see more content or making active runes scale with level better or something.)
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
If you cut caps for these, then there will be more stat points for DPS to put into defenses.

The people who will "suffer" will be people who don't understand the math of diminishing returns and continue to overinvest in the stat. Maybe putting a "hard cap" would prevent people from doing that.

I think the caps one reason reducing the differentiation of classes. A DPS class can get around 40k in magic resist without pushing too hard. That's 44% protection. A tank class has abilities that provide more armor/magic resist than the DPS class's abilities and can hit a higher number (I dunno, 50k, 60k? ) without pushing too hard. I know 55k is only 3% more protection than 40k. I'd assume 60k is less than 4% more protection than 40k. Due to this, tanks (mostly) don't have more defenses than other classes. If we want differentiation of the classes stats-wise, then the caps/diminishing returns would need to be adjusted in some sort of upward manner.

(Admittedly, tanks do get a few other abilities to improve tankiness like increased dodge/block/parry/more HP that are outside of stats.)

I don't get the fixation on savage/brut :D. (The Thorncrest origin, that's what should be nerfed :D.)

20k in the stat gives over 60% of the benefit (about +13% crit chance). 30k gives around 80% of the benefit of the stat (about +16% crit chance). at lvl 95, 20k should be easily reachable That's (very roughly) the stat on 2 out of the 6 possible pieces of gear, the glove prep, and 2 reinforcement runes. The base crit chance is 2% and then +4% from thorncrest origin (yuck! Why'd they make that so powerful!).

So, someone who puts more investment to get higher savagery is going from 19% crit chance to 22% crit chance. (assuming 30k brutality and the +25% more thorncrest origin, you're at around 300%, so each crit is +2 other attacks) When calculating average damage, I look at it as 1 + (0.19crit chance*2 brutality) = 1.38 vs. 1.44. 1.44/1.38 = 4%.

Whatever we are trying to do, this 4% increase in damage over someone else seems like it is not the biggest thing. (That's not a 4% number on a damage chart. If someone was 10% on the chart, the person with 10k more savagery from 20k-30k would be 10.4%.)

So, someone who is uninformed in how stats work (which was me for many years!) may end up with no savagery/brutality investment, or someone leveling so fast they don't care about their gear, but anyone trying at all can make it to "20k" (or whatever the 20k is for their level). Pumping savagery to 40k gets you +17.6% crit chance, 55k would be +18.8%.

Doing the same exercise on the +18.8%, we see 19% (for 20k investment), 24.8% (for 55k investment), that's less than a 9% difference for climbing up the scale. (so, 10% on damage chart for person 1, and 10.9% for person 2)

I think people who are trying are far more likely to fall into a mistake of overinvesting (since you have to do the math (or pay attention to the little chevrons) to avoid overinvesting) rather than underinvesting (since that is simply not paying any attention to your gear).

Admittedly savage + brut are complimentary, and same with ability power adding in.

Your base damage * (1+0.ability power) * (1 + (0.crit rate * (brutality - 100)/100)) = damage avg. So, if you take a character at 20k in all 3 of those, and then compare to someone in 30k in all 3, you get a wider gulf.

20k in all 3 : 2.12
30k in all 3: 2.34 (10.5% increase over 20k in all 3)
55k in all 3: 2.58 (21.7% increase over 20k in all 3) (is 55k in all 3 even possible? :D Probably, but I've never been close to that high :D)

But, even this wider gulf (and with HUGE investment difference!) is the difference between someone doing 10% of damage on the chart and someone doing 12% of damage on the chart.

I do not think the "performance gap" problem can be solved by modification of the balance of the stats in the current paradigm. (perhaps a complete overhaul of some sort could do something, but I would argue more in favor of making stats more of a difference so the best strategy isn't "try to get close to 30k in all stats except will/vigor/intellect".)

I was thinking of another idea last week: the reason I went hybrid was because Holy didn't have enough good abilities. Holy Bolt, Smite, heal, Cure <- all good numerically.
divine hammer, mass heal, mass shield <- all weak numerically.
Bless<- actually pretty good in a pinch, but the longer cooldown makes it weaker "overall"
This is fine while levelling up. the "utility" spell like divine hammer (and I'm sure other specs have similar) is quite useful, and you're not socketting all 7 slots anyways.

If you buffed all of the numbers on these skills, it'd be too strong. It's like the devs did a similar diminishing returns thing in socketting out the gear... however, shadow priest has the same:
Shadow Bolt, Gloom <- very strong numerically
Shadow orbs <- meh numerically on its own, but useful for exploding the dots ability: unstable power
Shadow Blast, darkfrost, corrupting plague <- weak numerically, situationally useful
Vampiric pact <- verrry weak for the mana part, but people who want to avoid socketting a holy spell can use it combine with a lot of talent points for healing while levelling up.

So, you take all this stuff, (and presumably other classes have similar), and with 7 slots, you can now get 6 solid attack spells!

If we say we don't want to make hybrid impossible and we don't want to nerf healer/tank out of existence on damage, then what if we made the cost of equiping two "Good" abilities higher? Let's say you made holy bolt 2 "socket slots" (while only costing one socket to load it) and made shadow bolt the same. Now, Sprig's awesome mace would need to drop 2 spells. He couldn't get "the best of both worlds" entirely. Maybe increase active "socket slots" to 8 on the weapon and then make a few of these really powerful "bread and butter" spells use 2 slots (without increasing socket cost of slotting them), and then longer cooldown, situationally useful utility spells (like judgement (priest elder AoE stun on) or divine hammer) that are weak numerically take only 1 slot.

I think this, or variations on this, could reduce certain hybrid super-power. (but, that could be a lot of game development effort for a kind of small benefit overall. I myself would rather see more content or making active runes scale with level better or something.)
I like the idea of a hard stat cap as well. That is something I requested back in my old Gear System suggestions thread as I feel it would simplify the system enough for everyone to get a better grip on making builds.

Runes could be categorized from common to Legendary in rarity, each with fixed values for their levels. Players could then grind for Legendary runes if they saw fit. The value margim between rarities would decrease from tier to tier, so it would retain the diminishing returns concept, just in another fashion.

The reason I focus on savagery and brutality specifically, is because they are the constants among every single one of the super DPS players I've seen.

Take this example from a fully buffed level 95 Fury Build. This is one of the players who frequently is at the top of the charts by a wide margin and can easily take aggro from a lightning who is not built in a similar fashion.

20200219_110214.png
That is a 24% critical strike chance with 310% critical damage.

1 in 4 of their attacks are critical strikes! Critical strikes are meant to be very rare and personally I feel that they should be the result of precision timing or the end result of specific combos. At the very least, they should not exceed 10% chance in frequency if they are based on random luck. 25% is unbalanced, and it shows in practice as well.
 
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SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
That is a 24% critical strike chance with 310% critical damage.

1 in 4 of their attacks are critical strikes! Critical strikes are meant to be very rare and personally I feel that they should be the result of precision timing or the end result of specific combos. At the very least, they should not exceed 10% chance in frequency if they are based on random luck. 25% is unbalanced, and it shows in practice as well.
This stat compared with that same player with 20k savagery would be 19% critical strike chance (1 in 5) and would be a 7.5% difference in overall average damage. (so, someone on chart at 10% and one at 10.75%)

That does not seem unbalanced to me.

My guess is that that player skill/talent/ability choice is great and it is not the stats alone that make the player good. So, it may be correlated, but I do not think the stats are the cause.
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
The issue I find with making tougher content which requires an actual tank is that most tankes need to be built offensively in order to be able to hold aggro. If we can't hold aggro now over the top DPSs, how will we do it then?
I think that's the issue of player power gap, from what I see when top tier Damage dealer and top tier Tank run together the tank can still hold the aggro and that's before the threat buff update. If that's not the case I think that is where coordination supposed to come in, like holding back a bit, timing the brutal force so only use it just after the tank use it, etc. If everyone can just do whatever they want then coordination will never be a thing. There are also mechanics in game like the threat reducing token that haven't been utilized well enough.
Also, the lack of diminishing returns on health makes it the ideal buffer for DPS classes to tank just as effectively, but in a different manner. With a solid priest and large health pool, DPS will be able to tank it, especially since they cut the fight duration into a fraction.
Even with how vitality work right now warrior do have much higher health pool, since only tank class like warrior and earth shaman have the ability to increase their vitality via talent points, warrior also the only class that can increase their max HP by 30% instead of 15% for every other classes. So the enemy single target damage can be adjusted to where warrior can tank it easily while other class will have a really hard time. And if other class spend more stats/talent point to increase their defense capabilities it will also make it easier for the tank to hold aggro.

No matter how hard content is (we thought HoS was hard, but Sprig solo'd it), it is proven that people will be able to rise to the challenge and match or overcome it. I don't think changing content will have any effect.
While yes if we're willing to spend the resources we can do anything, but I doubt it will be a routine, it's more like a one time thing for fun or self achievement, since doing that for the reward definitely not worth it. Also that's why mechanic difficulty is the way to go for group content, just compare the HHoS and HRC, just from raw power alone HHOS is much harder, but no one can solo HRC because it's just mechanicly impossible to do so, well someone might be able to do it if they're willing ton of ressurect, but that should be where group content headed to.
Cut the caps for Savagery, Brutality and Expertise. Reduce the damage output from a few of the very high powered abilities like Mana Fire, Shadow Orbs, the new Fire Ultimate which modifies combust etc. Each of these can be adjusted slightly for balance (slight duration or mana tweaks, or remove secondary modifiers such as the extra crit chance on shadow orbs). Then look at some of the talents that buff stats and perhaps change them to something which is actually interesting and dynamic. Something that adds new combinations or chains and requires tactics rather than just pumping points into critical strike stats.
I doubt the bold part will work, It will somewhat reduce the players gap, but it's not the root of the issue since as long as everyone have a decent amount of them the difference won't be big considering the diminishing return. I agree more with the italic part, especially on shadow orb/unstable power it is way too strong for talent that only cost 5 talent point which make hybrid priest very easy to built around . At the same time I think mana fire is one of the well designed OP feat since it is really good but at the same time have a huge downside with the very high mana cost. I still believe it is much better to make battle pace slower and make classes easier to play to reduce player performance gap. Like how many player can cast Thunderbird Strike every 4 sec, Pummel every 5 sec, lightning bolt every 6 sec and that is just 3 out of seven feat and doesn't consider the cooldown reduction from block, there are very few who can seamlessly use those feat with very little downtime. The same with other classes very few players can use 7 feat with very little down time and since the cooldown is pretty fast even a little downtime make a pretty huge damage/threat output difference. That way it boost those at the bottom without hurting the guys at the top(may be a little).

Let me put it into a different perspective. If we took the bottom 3/4 DPS players from the damage charts, and made them re-run the 95s or Dungeons without the top 1/4 damage dealers, what would happen?
There are some adjustment that can be made, like increase the boss HP but lessen the HP regen/heal, for the damage increase the boss single target damage but reduce the AoE damage, something a long that line. Adjustment like that can make the boss a bit harder for the player at the top, but easier for the one at the bottom. Like the HP for example, the bosses high HP regen make them almost impossible to kill with team that have low total damage output, but for team that have high enough damage output HP regen become insignificant, that's one thing that make impossible for mediocore group but very easy for the top tier group. The damage changes make not everyone can tank the boss, but at the same time it's easier for everyone else to survive the boss, and many more changes along that line can be done.
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
That is a 24% critical strike chance with 310% critical damage.
I think that one is because of Thorncrest Origin buff (+4% crit chance, +25% crit damage) which right now it too strong and kinda a must have for Damage dealer class, If you ignore the thorncrest buff it's only around 3% more crit chances than average player that have around 20k savagery which isn't a lot at all.
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
This stat compared with that same player with 20k savagery would be 19% critical strike chance (1 in 5) and would be a 7.5% difference in overall average damage. (so, someone on chart at 10% and one at 10.75%)

That does not seem unbalanced to me.

My guess is that that player skill/talent/ability choice is great and it is not the stats alone that make the player good. So, it may be correlated, but I do not think the stats are the cause.
The formula you are using does not take a great many variables into consideration. 25% critical strike chance varies in effectiveness based on your sub-class and access to certain abilities. As I mentioned earlier, critical strike chance is just a piece of the puzzle. Certain abilities such as shadow orbs are additional pieces. A shadow orbs critical strike with 300% increased damage on a boss riddled with DoTs is going to deal an insane burst of damage. That specific critical strike is worth much more than others, and is 10x more than anything a tank could dish out in terms of immediate threat.

It's not as simple as a 1 in 4 chance of this occuring because the ability itself has a critical strike boost. It's these types of abilities / ultimates combined with high savagery and brutality that create scenarios where tanks cannot hold aggro and bosses melt minutes faster than they otherwise would have. Comparing .25 to .20 critical strike chance may seem like a small difference when you are basing it off of a single base damage, but that is not the reality here. In any case, I still feel that 10% should be the hard cap on critical strike chance. It shouldn't be nearly as frequent as it is now.

I think that's the issue of player power gap, from what I see when top tier Damage dealer and top tier Tank run together the tank can still hold the aggro and that's before the threat buff update. If that's not the case I think that is where coordination supposed to come in, like holding back a bit, timing the brutal force so only use it just after the tank use it, etc. If everyone can just do whatever they want then coordination will never be a thing. There are also mechanics in game like the threat reducing token that haven't been utilized well enough.

Even with how vitality work right now warrior do have much higher health pool, since only tank class like warrior and earth shaman have the ability to increase their vitality via talent points, warrior also the only class that can increase their max HP by 30% instead of 15% for every other classes. So the enemy single target damage can be adjusted to where warrior can tank it easily while other class will have a really hard time. And if other class spend more stats/talent point to increase their defense capabilities it will also make it easier for the tank to hold aggro.


While yes if we're willing to spend the resources we can do anything, but I doubt it will be a routine, it's more like a one time thing for fun or self achievement, since doing that for the reward definitely not worth it. Also that's why mechanic difficulty is the way to go for group content, just compare the HHoS and HRC, just from raw power alone HHOS is much harder, but no one can solo HRC because it's just mechanicly impossible to do so, well someone might be able to do it if they're willing ton of ressurect, but that should be where group content headed to.

I doubt the bold part will work, It will somewhat reduce the players gap, but it's not the root of the issue since as long as everyone have a decent amount of them the difference won't be big considering the diminishing return. I agree more with the italic part, especially on shadow orb/unstable power it is way too strong for talent that only cost 5 talent point which make hybrid priest very easy to built around . At the same time I think mana fire is one of the well designed OP feat since it is really good but at the same time have a huge downside with the very high mana cost. I still believe it is much better to make battle pace slower and make classes easier to play to reduce player performance gap. Like how many player can cast Thunderbird Strike every 4 sec, Pummel every 5 sec, lightning bolt every 6 sec and that is just 3 out of seven feat and doesn't consider the cooldown reduction from block, there are very few who can seamlessly use those feat with very little downtime. The same with other classes very few players can use 7 feat with very little down time and since the cooldown is pretty fast even a little downtime make a pretty huge damage/threat output difference. That way it boost those at the bottom without hurting the guys at the top(may be a little).


There are some adjustment that can be made, like increase the boss HP but lessen the HP regen/heal, for the damage increase the boss single target damage but reduce the AoE damage, something a long that line. Adjustment like that can make the boss a bit harder for the player at the top, but easier for the one at the bottom. Like the HP for example, the bosses high HP regen make them almost impossible to kill with team that have low total damage output, but for team that have high enough damage output HP regen become insignificant, that's one thing that make impossible for mediocore group but very easy for the top tier group. The damage changes make not everyone can tank the boss, but at the same time it's easier for everyone else to survive the boss, and many more changes along that line can be done.
The problem is that there is no need for coordination. Why should the DPS hold back if they can tank the boss without dying? Making the bosses hit harder may have a positive effect but I think the devs need to take a closer look at certain stats, abilities and talents as well.

I do agree that combat needs to slow down a bit. That nerf to expertise would help resolve that though, as abilities would take longer to cool-down.
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
Last edited
I'm not familiar with warriors, what special thing procs of critical hits for them?

Yeah, unstable power is not overpowered if your shadow power is low: you get 40% chance to explode the DoTs. making DoTs (let's say gloom and shadow bolt) with 10-12 seconds duration have an effective duration of ~6 seconds (shadow orbs cooldown base is 8 seconds), so it's sort of about the same power as seasoned botanist, it just requires more button clicks and only 40% chance. (there is also a mention of 50% increase critical strike chance in the tooltip, so I assume that means if you had 20% crit chance, it goes to 30%, but never sure with those tooltips).

If you go up to +50% shadow power (easy to do!): 60% chance <-- probably nicely balanced here.
If you go up to +100% shadow power (REALLLY HARD to do, requires glyph procs and valor pots!): 80% chance <-- probably overpowered

So, the 5-point unstable power ultimate isn't OP if you don't also take the 40-point shadow affinity to get your shadow power up. (mastery will only get you 20-25%) But, it probably is OP to the very capped people. Maybe cap the unstable power proc chance at 70% (which would be reached at +75% shadow power)? With certain situational buffs, you can gets to 100% proc chance (Shadow priests love you, Baldok!), which is clearly crazy, no other class gets as much boost from ability power. (but again, nothing to do with stats.)
 

Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
If you go up to +100% shadow power (REALLLY HARD to do, requires glyph procs and valor pots!): 80% chance <-- probably overpowered
With Grit, Poise, Flux and Glory, I can approach 375% ability power. It’s very situational, but it’s possible. Fully geared, with Poise, but without Grit/Flux/Glory, I have a ‘resting’ AP of about 190%... so I’m not too sure that having +100 is really all that much of a stretch.
 
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