KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Last edited
Disclaimer: This thread's intention is to get various perspectives on a topic which effects us all. Let's please keep it civil!

Balance has become a fairly prevalent topic in other posts, so I figured it would be useful to create a consolidated thread of feedback. This thread will focus on anything balance related: Class vs Class, Performance Gaps vs top, mid and bottom tier builds, the balancing of content, bosses and enemies etc. For those who feel comfortable, consider including some information in your post such as:
  • Your Class / Sub-Class
  • Your Combat Level
  • Any other information of relevance
The questions below are here to kick off the discussion. Pick and choose any you wish to answer or just post on the topic in general.

Content Balancing

Metrics to consider:
  • Time required to complete zones and bounties
  • Gear / sockets / boosts required to complete zones and bounties
  • Solo vs Group game-play
  • Rate of progression / pacing
  • Rewards for completing or participating in said content
What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 1 to 40?

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 40 to 55 (Traven)?

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 55 to 75 (Pyrron)?

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 75 to 90?

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 90 to 95 (Blighted Isles)?

Do you feel that content which is scaled and accessible for all players (Dungeons / Event Zones) is balanced well?

Do you feel that we have a good variety of difficulty levels for content? (Solo, Casual Group, Organized Group, Organized Elite Group, etc.)

At what difficulty do you have the most enjoyment when solo?

At what difficulty do you have the most enjoyment when grouped?


Performance Balancing

Do you feel that numbers [health, damage...] scale too far at higher levels?

Do you feel that certain stats are too powerful compared to others, or that certain stats are underpowered?

Do you feel that certain abilities are too powerful compared to others, or that certain abilities are underpowered?

Do you feel that certain talents are too powerful compared to others, or that certain talents are underpowered?

Do you feel that certain buffs / boosts are too powerful compared to others, or that certain buffs / boosts are underpowered?


Do you feel that the current options for measuring your build (attack / defense rating) are accurate?

Do you feel that combat is too fast paced?

Do you feel that the difference in performance due to a player's build choices are too wide?

Do you feel that gear and builds are too complicated to understand?

Do you feel that RNG makes it difficult to create your desired setup?

Do you feel that it is too costly to create your desired setup?


Do you feel that Elder Levels are balanced?

Do you feel that players can become TOO powerful?

Class Balancing

If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much damage output they should have, how would you rank them?

If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much threat output they should have, how would you rank them?

If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much healing output they should have, how would you rank them?

Do you feel that classes are able to fulfill their primary roles [Tank, DPS, Support] in group content?

Do you feel that tanks are needed?

Do you feel that healers / support are needed?

Do you feel that damage dealers are needed?


Do you feel that certain sub-classes are too powerful if built a specific way?

Do you feel that certain sub-classes are underpowered for their role?

Do you feel that certain hybrid builds are too powerful?
 

Math Fish

Squirrel
Characters
Math Fish (M Hunter), Shama Fisha (W Shaman), Accursed Angelfish (S Priest)
Platform
Steam
You asked for it Kave! One giant text block, coming up!
  • Your Class / Sub-Class
    • Marksman Hunter
  • Your Combat Level
    • Level 85
  • Any other information of relevance
    • I am an armor specialist who crafts a Legendary piece of gear every level.
    • I have a weapon specialist who crafts a good Legendary Bow every 5 levels which I gnogment with an Elder Bow (for Concussive Shot) and 1 or more other bows for runes and another single-target ability.
    • I solo everything except Elders and OP Bevyn stuff at level.
    • I built my Marksman to be as supportive in group content as possible without sacrificing the best DPS talents.
    • I'm a nerd and spend way too much time calculating stuff and responding to posts like this.

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 1 to 40?
It's easy mode until you hit the grouped enemies in the Cloister/Cathedral region. I had to get two aoe abilities and strategize a bit to get my toon through there.

... ranging from 40 to 55 (Traven)?
Back to easy mode for the most part. This entire area was pretty smooth (perhaps because I was 2 level above everything the whole time w/o AS).

... ranging from 55 to 75 (Pyrron)?
I learned from Cloister ... Pyrron was fun, the first comfortably challenging area in the game. Overall this was my favorite region, balance-wise, by a considerable margin. The best part was everything from Pyrron Courtyard up to, but not including, Keppel Cavern. I found it funny that the game finally decided to make Gargoyle bounties tier 2 later on like they should have been from the beginning. lol

... ranging from 75 to 90?
And then the game made the Gargoyle bosses not tier 2 again. I'm not quite finished with this, but ... HOLY CRAP Bevyn is a broken mess!!! After that it was about medium difficulty with ever increasing health pools and resistances for bounties.

... ranging from 90 to 95 (Blighted Isles)?

Do you feel that content which is scaled and accessible for all players (Dungeons / Event Zones) is balanced well?
No. I have written a chapter's worth of material about dungeons in another thread. As for events, they are obviously designed to be beginner-friendly, but ... difficulty of events varies so wildly that I have to question what was going through the devs' minds when they created them. I have seen new players one-shot some mobs and get mutilated by other mobs. Some elders are cleared by groups in a matter of seconds; others take 5-10 minutes (I kid you not). Some elders pose no threat to anyone, while others (like Jingle and Licorhoof) have a higher kill count than some players do. It could be mechanics, but if we haven't figured them out by now, then they are not being communicated properly.

Do you feel that we have a good variety of difficulty levels for content? (Solo, Casual Group, Organized Group, Organized Elite Group, etc.)
I feel there is good variety in everything but casual group content (more than 2-3 players).

At what difficulty do you have the most enjoyment when solo?
Depends on the day: from "comfortably challenging" to "can be brutal" most of the time (esp new content) ... more casual when farming or hunting bounties.

At what difficulty do you have the most enjoyment when grouped?
Challenging in every way (stats, interesting mechanics, randomness, buffs to enemies, debuffs to allies, etc)

Do you feel that numbers [health, damage...] scale too far at higher levels?
This one is an interesting question: I feel that numbers don't scale smoothly. There appear to be spikes in difficulty resulting from not adjusting former end-game content. Red Cloister/Cathedral and Sanctorium are good examples of this.
Aside from that, the general growth of numbers appear to grow faster on enemies than on players once you get to the second half of Pyrron. Perhaps this is due to my plateauing on gear loadout, though.

Do you feel that certain stats are too powerful compared to others, or that certain stats are underpowered?
Most certainly! Ability Power is essentially God in combat: The more of it you have the better. With that in mind, here is my general grouping of stats:
  • Required (if you don't have it, you die a lot):
    • Mastery, Vitality, Expertise.
  • Extremely Powerful (if you don't have it, you will probably still die a lot)
    • Savagery, Brutality
    • Glorious Glory
    • Flux, Juggernaut, Poise (for non-close combat), Voidstrike (esp on any dot-users)
  • Nice (Convenient to have, but generally not needed for me)
    • Bonus Armor, Magic Resist
    • Clarity (nice with my realm bonus)
  • Everything else ... scrap it!
    • Magic Find is, ofc, great for farming gear, but as far as raw power is concerned ... scrap it!
    • Will and Intellect (and Vigor, to an extent) are absolutely worthless in a dungeon-type situation, but Will and Vigor are quite good when playing casual.
    • Haste is good once you get to the point where you are literally always spamming abilities and always have 2 or more of them inactive at a time ... so lightning warriors probably find this AMAZING.

Do you feel that certain abilities are too powerful compared to others, or that certain abilities are underpowered?
Oh dear lord, where do I even begin with this ...
I won't - because starting this discussion will only lead to pvp and I don't want anything to do with it.

Do you feel that certain buffs / boosts are too powerful compared to others, or that certain abilities are underpowered?
Not many people use group buffs ... but the single-player buffs? I have only been using them for 7-8 levels, so ... not much info there.

Do you feel that the current options for measuring your build (attack / defense rating) are accurate?
  • Attack ... heck no! Attack for my toon is almost entirely determined by the raw power of my bow. As proof ... I use the same bow for 5 levels and my attack rating stays between 6.5 and 7.0 without buffs; yet my damage plummets by 50%! "Attack Modifier" would be more accurate as it determines the relative effectiveness of damage given my current weapon.
  • Defense is difficult to read. Sometimes I have a 7.0 defense and get squished by every bounty in existence. Other times I have a 6.0 defense and can face-tank Josephine and friends for a couple of minutes (yes, I actually did that as a hunter lol).

Do you feel that combat is too fast paced?
The vast majority of the time, it feels perfectly fine to me. In dungeons and, particularly, against elders, combat is soooooooo slowwwwwww. I actually carry conversations in multiple chats while fighting (non-event-zone) elder bosses sometimes. lol

Do you feel that the difference in performance due to a player's build choices are too wide?
A million times, YES!!! My build currently does double damage (or more) and can generally tank longer than any other marksman of a similar level (and I have tested with a handful of them) ... and I'm a SUPPORT marksman.

Do you feel that gear and builds are too complicated to understand?
No. Builds, for the most part, actually seem relatively simple to me. I feel that it takes a long time to understand gear, though; and not a lot of it is ever explained to players. We literally get a "Here, gnog this!" quest and that's it!

Do you feel that RNG makes it difficult to create your desired setup?
I assume you mean gear? In that case, not really. If you are not trying to min/max, then you will generally be able to get a just fine build with 20 crafts or so for each piece of gear. If you want a Savagery, Expertise, Glory, Voidstrike Legendary Bow with double runes, however ... it is going to take a very, very, very (unrealistically) long time to get 4 of those things in that list.

Do you feel that Elder Levels are balanced?

Do you feel that players can become TOO powerful?
Always! In any system that allows noobs to progress through the game, there will be other players that can break the crap out of it. That is the case here, as well.

If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much damage output they should have, how would you rank them?
Key word here is SHOULD. It depends on the number of targets (and is subject to varied interpretation).
  • 1-target
    1. Nature Hunter
    2. Fury Warrior
    3. Shadow Priest
    4. Lightning Warrior
    5. Fire Wizard
    6. Water Shaman/Marksman Hunter
    7. Earth Shaman/Ice Wizard
    8. Holy Priest
  • Multi-target
    1. Fire Wizard
    2. Ice Wizard
    3. Lightning Warrior
    4. Water Shaman
    5. Nature Hunter/Marksman Hunter/Earth Shaman/Fury Warrior/Shadow Priest
    6. Holy Priest
If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much threat output they should have, how would you rank them?
Same as before, but with Warriors, Shamans, and Holy Priests moved up considerably.
  • 1-target
    1. Lightning Warrior
    2. Fury Warrior
    3. Earth Shaman
    4. Holy Priest
    5. Nature Hunter
    6. Water Shaman (not sure about this one ... can be 4, 5, or 6)
    7. Shadow Priest
    8. Fire Wizard
    9. Marksman Hunter
    10. Ice Wizard
  • Multi-target
    1. Lightning Warrior
    2. Earth Shaman
    3. Holy Priest/Water Shaman
    4. Fire Wizard
    5. Ice Wizard/Fury Warrior
    6. Nature Hunter/Marksman Hunter/Shadow Priest
If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much healing output they should have, how would you rank them?
  1. Holy Priest/Water Shaman
  2. Earth Shaman/Marksman Hunter
  3. Nature Hunter (maybe switch with Marksman or move Marksman to here ... not sure)
  4. everyone else

Do you feel that classes are able to fulfill their primary roles [Tank, DPS, Support] in group content?
  • Tanks can fulfill their roles somewhat if people actually understood how to build one.
    • I'm not sure if the most recent update finally solidified Lightning Warriors as tanks or not (not much info).
    • Earth Shamans, though ... those tanks don't exist.
  • DPS is tricky. Ignoring the whole Plaguelord incident for a moment ...
    • Wizards seem to fulfill the role quite well.
    • Nature Hunters are lacking in single target power.
    • not sure about any other classes
  • The only true support seems to be healing.
    • Holy Priests fulfill their role very well, but they are so rare that we praise one (mainly Tweety hehe) every time he/she comes to a dungeon run. lol
    • I never see Water Shamans. Are they still in this game?
    • My Marksman Support doesn't have much to support with: Dash, a 10% mastery bonus, and the occasional boost to combat speed. All are good, just wish I had more. I think I am literally the only support-focused Marksman on the server ... someone PLEASE tell me there is another one.
    • The Fire Wizard has a support skill more useful than any 2 of mine combined.
Do you feel that tanks are needed?
Only for Elders at level and dungeon runs. I hear, however, that they aren't needed in L95 content.

Do you feel that healers / support are needed?
Only for Elders near-ish to level (from 75 onward) and dungeon runs. Healers are never not needed in those situations.

Do you feel that damage dealers are needed?
Only for getting gold in dungeon runs. Outside of that, you can do pretty much anything without DPS, just slower (except maybe that healing fairy elder, but that's a fluke lol).

Do you feel that certain sub-classes are too powerful if built a specific way?
  • TALENTS
    • If they are built a certain way, then they aren't really sub-classes anymore. We call them hybrids, and yes, they are far too powerful in some cases ... like, can-solo-dungeons-alright powerful.
    • On the flip-side, I can show you some pretty ... poopy ... class builds I am sure several players have.
  • GEAR
    • Put simply: Yes! If you focus on the stats from the previous question, "Do you feel that certain stats are too powerful compared to others, or that certain stats are underpowered?", you will have a much more powerful character.

Do you feel that certain sub-classes are underpowered for their role?
The key words here are "FOR THEIR ROLE".
  • We'll see about Lightning Warriors.
  • Nature Hunters, yes. (again, FOR THEIR ROLE)
  • Fury Warriors ... appears to be, but no real info to go by here.
  • Shamans ... maybe? Why else are they so rare?
  • Marksman Hunter ... they are actually fine, I think. They just don't feel as good to me: I don't feel like my supporting is actually doing anything for the team sometimes (though I KNOW it does). I can't pinpoint exactly where this feeling is coming from, though.
 

Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
My main is a level 95 warrior, i keep switching around the talent/built because i really enjoy doing it, right now trying out DPS lightning warrior. I play all other class, but they're still stuck at round lvl 60-80 because I don't really enjoy doing the grind again, so just play them when they are fully rested.

Content Balancing
What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 1 to 40?
I think its fine, but probably the grouped mob should be limited to a group of 3 at this level, even tho it's doable and not that hard, for new player which usually just fight 1 mob at a time to suddenly fight 5 make a very steep learning curve.

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 40 to 55 (Traven)?
For this part the challenges is Venerable bosses and how dense is the mob spread around the map, but I think it's easier than grouped mob at level 30-40, from here soloing elder at level start to become really hard without spending lot's of resources.

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 55 to 75 (Pyrron)?
I think at this part is similar to the grouped mob at lvl 30-40 zone, but it is more challenging since they're more variant of mob and the mob start to have special ability that I have to play around with (stun, web, slow, self buff, etc). On some class having 4 feat start to become necessary at this point of the game, the good trade of is for most class the new feat from lvl 55 elder weapon (some already get it since the lvl 10 elder weapon) help a lot to deal with grouped mob. At least combat wise it have the best designed mechanics.

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 75 to 90?

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 90 to 95 (Blighted Isles)?
On the grind part of the content it is much easier compared to Pyrron zone, not many intresting things on the grind, it is very grindy and repetitive and the story is really short. Gotrin have pretty good mechanics, but still pale in comparison to pyrron zone. The only positive things about this level range is that they do have a very well designed elder fight, where team work is necessary at least with the group at level as the boss.

Overall I don't really notice much time difference when killing the bounties, usually the difference only when they're grouped, for time to complete

Do you feel that content which is scaled and accessible for all players (Dungeons / Event Zones) is balanced well?
On paper yes, but in reality no since there is no way to balance the difference on resources used, socket, buffs, rebirth, number of ultimate, etc. Once a lvl 21 hunter with one rebirth, five feat and a set of epic gear, get on top of the damage chart by a pretty large margin, so it's scaled well, but almost no one willing to go that far at low level, may be not even at mid-high level.

Do you feel that we have a good variety of difficulty levels for content? (Solo, Casual Group, Organized Group, Organized Elite Group, etc.)
For solo yes, for casual group may be yes, for Organized group no, since as long as we have a priest almost nothing else really matter, Organized elite group definitely no as almost everthing is soloable as long as you're willing to spend the resources and all it take is 2 good player and you can finish every content in the game (finish not getting gold on dungeon)

At what difficulty do you have the most enjoyment when solo?
Probably at the hardest difficulty since I really enjoy failing and figuring out what I should do. I prefer to do super hard things where I failed 100 times before succeeding but only have to finish it once, instead of successfully doing the same things a hundred times before i can progress.

At what difficulty do you have the most enjoyment when grouped?
I prefer milder difficulty on group content, probably something that is still hard, but without harsh punishment (constant death), one of the good example is Heroic red Cloyster.

Performance Balancing
Do you feel that numbers [health, damage...] scale too far at higher levels?
yes and not just at high level, every thing double every 10 level, and that make things that supposed to be challenging become too easy real fast.

Do you feel that certain stats are too powerful compared to others, or that certain stats are underpowered?
too powerful I'm not sure, but for underpowered definitely vigor, will, and intellect, I always try to have as few as possible of those stats on every classes I played, even 0 is okay with me. (I get intellect on wizard and will on warrior)

Do you feel that certain abilities are too powerful compared to others, or that certain abilities are underpowered?
Stat boosting abilities are really underpowered, you have to make your built around it, and even then it is still not that good. For too powerful it is hard to say since there are many different things to consider. For example Nature Hunter's Seasoned Botanist or Shadow Priest's Unstable Power, they are so powerful, but at the same time without those two the class will become really bad.

On trinket Brutal force and Zephyr's Enclave is way too good compared to other trinket rune

Do you feel that certain buffs / boosts are too powerful compared to others, or that certain abilities are underpowered?
most buff doesn't do much, they can help, but as I mentioned above stat changes doen's really matter. I think the only thing that is too powerful is mana potion and the one that is underpowered is health potion.

Do you feel that the current options for measuring your build (attack / defense rating) are accurate?
No, since stat's doesn't matter that much as long as you have a moderate amount on each of them, Feat, talent, and ultimate matter much more than stats. Tho if you just want to compare stats built it is pretty accurate for attack, for defense it way of, healt regen means almost nothing and avoidance should be valued a lot more than just 0.5 out of 10, since stat wise it the only thing that make warrior tankier than other classes.

Do you feel that combat is too fast paced?
difficulty wise no, but from enjoyment stand point yes, it makes mechanics in game, both from the player and the mob didn't shine. Like if we died ususally it happen in a split second, without being able to do anything, not because accumulations of mistake. The same with bosses most of the time they just died to quickly that many player don't even know what the bosses do if they don't read guide or some one tells them about it.

Do you feel that the difference in performance due to a player's build choices are too wide?
Built alone doesn't really make much difference, but built + playstyle make a huge difference.

Do you feel that gear and builds are too complicated to understand?
Instead of complicated, I think more to the confusing/overwhelming, but once you understand they key point it is not that complicated.

Do you feel that RNG makes it difficult to create your desired setup?
I don't think it is difficult, at least if compared to how we make nine-tail/mammoth gear in the past it is much easier, but somehow the RNG make it more frustrating to do. Also it just not as easy to figure out if we got the best thing for us which make no matter how good the gear we made it felt incomplete and could be better, unlike in the past when we saw ninetail we now its the best. For me somehow trying to get 3338 stat on each of my reinforcement rune for my lvl 95 gear felt more satisfying than finding the right combination of stats event tho its harder to do, since I can tell it's the best and I won't have to find a better one, at least until the next level cap increase, which I hope won't happen anytime soon.

Do you feel that Elder Levels are balanced?
I think so, elder level almost make no difference on the character power.

Do you feel that players can become TOO powerful?
It depends on what you mean by "Too Powerful", but I'll say if you're willing to spend the resources you can beat anything solo (except Bennedicta)

Class Balancing
If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much damage output they should have, how would you rank them?
Not sure how i would rank them, because in my opinion everything should have an equal trade off. Like a glass cannon or like on other game wizard have the higest Damage but they have very long cast time and can't be interrupted while casting.

If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much threat output they should have, how would you rank them?
For this one just imagine if you're the elder boss againt's a party of player which one will you kill first? If it was me I'll aim the priest, the DPS class and the last is the tank. At the same time, the tank should have an ability that force enemy to attack him event tho they don't generate much threat.

If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much healing output they should have, how would you rank them?
Definetly Priest on number one, Shaman second, the rest doesn't really matter.

Do you feel that classes are able to fulfill their primary roles [Tank, DPS, Support] in group content?
yes, but not like how it supposed to be if compared to other game of the same genre. Here everyone can be anything, at the same time no one can't go extreme attack or extreme defense, going extreme offense make us prone to get one shoted by random AoE that crit and going extremely defensive make you us useless.

Do you feel that tanks are needed?
Dedicated tanks help make things more coordinated and less complicated, but not needed.

Do you feel that healers / support are needed?
Almost all time yes, especially for things like Chilled heart and Lord Pyrrus petrify no one can do anything about it without cure/cleansing water, unless you get a group of elite that can take care of themself.

Do you feel that damage dealers are needed?
For the current dungeon yes, It doesn't matter if you can tank through every thing or keep everyone alive if you can't finish the dungeon in time (blame the timer :mad:), but heyright now almost everyone a damage dealer, including tank and healer

Do you feel that certain sub-classes are too powerful if built a specific way?
It almost never the fault of a single sub-classes, it always the hybrid, Priest you can combine healer+ DPS, warrior combine tank + DPS, and so on, For hunter I can't say it is a specific way, because it is the only way, any other built is just not good enough.

Do you feel that certain sub-classes are underpowered for their role?
Not sure, I feel like role beside healer just doesn't exist, everyone can be tank, everyone can be damage dealer, but only priest and shaman can become a healer.
 
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Bobo

BRA Member
Platform
PC
For the current dungeon yes, It doesn't matter if you can tank through every thing or keep everyone alive if you can't finish the dungeon in time (blame the timer :mad:), but heyright now almost everyone a damage dealer, including tank and healer
Totally agree. Did a level 95 elder run today with a guild with its members mostly built for extreme dps and got gold for all 4 elders. All they need is really just 1 good healer from another guild. Tanks are redundant as their top dps dealers generate more threat than tanks and they are kept alive by the healer plus whatever boosts they have consumed. It's a winning formula: Extreme dps. Stack whatever mobs you can and decimate them asap. Even Hox with trox don't stand a chance, expecially if the healer knows not to heal when trox is up and the dps puts trox down fast with their AOE while still attacking Hox. Jacinda is another example. To get gold, the dps has to be high enough to wipe out her last 5% hp before she can switch clones and heal herself.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining whether any class is overpowered or underpowered. We should give credit to the people who put in the resources to build powerful toons. If a lightning warrior deals more damage than a wizard or hunter, it's more likely the wizard/hunter build is not optimized rather than the LW being overpowered. A small group of players have built their toons correctly basing on dps for successful dungeon runs. They may even have spent money on getting the right gear/setup/consumables. If that makes the tank redundant, i'd say it's the design of the dungeon mechanics at fault, not the players' fault for being able to find an optimum solution to the current dungeon. Imho if we keep "balancing" the game just because some people have spent their resources on building extremely successful builds to dungeon runs, we are negating the efforts of these people. It would be better to balance the game by adjusting the game mechanics instead. For example, the developers can consider what kind of boss set-up would make a tank more indispensable so that even extreme dps without a good tank might not be a solution to clear that boss successfully? Just like how healers are indispensable to dungeon runs (even extreme dps toons have to stay alive to do their damage after all).
Just my two cents worth.
 

Bobo

BRA Member
Platform
PC
Totally agree. Did a level 95 elder run today with a guild with its members mostly built for extreme dps and got gold for all 4 elders. All they need is really just 1 good healer from another guild. Tanks are redundant as their top dps dealers generate more threat than tanks and they are kept alive by the healer plus whatever boosts they have consumed. It's a winning formula: Extreme dps. Stack whatever mobs you can and decimate them asap. Even Hox with trox don't stand a chance, expecially if the healer knows not to heal when trox is up and the dps puts trox down fast with their AOE while still attacking Hox. Jacinda is another example. To get gold, the dps has to be high enough to wipe out her last 5% hp before she can switch clones and heal herself.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining whether any class is overpowered or underpowered. We should give credit to the people who put in the resources to build powerful toons. If a lightning warrior deals more damage than a wizard or hunter, it's more likely the wizard/hunter build is not optimized rather than the LW being overpowered. A small group of players have built their toons correctly basing on dps for successful dungeon runs. They may even have spent money on getting the right gear/setup/consumables. If that makes the tank redundant, i'd say it's the design of the dungeon mechanics at fault, not the players' fault for being able to find an optimum solution to the current dungeon. Imho if we keep "balancing" the game just because some people have spent their resources on building extremely successful builds to dungeon runs, we are negating the efforts of these people. It would be better to balance the game by adjusting the game mechanics instead. For example, the developers can consider what kind of boss set-up would make a tank more indispensable so that even extreme dps without a good tank might not be a solution to clear that boss successfully? Just like how healers are indispensable to dungeon runs (even extreme dps toons have to stay alive to do their damage after all).
Just my two cents worth.
By the way i was that redundant tank in the run...lol
 

Bobo

BRA Member
Platform
PC
For example, the developers can consider what kind of boss set-up would make a tank more indispensable so that even extreme dps without a good tank might not be a solution to clear that boss successfully?
As examples, imo here are some feasible existing boss setups where tanks are more indispensable and top dps have to time their threat spikes carefully to avoid instant death:
Jingle and Vesesia - high damage close range KO attacks which only good tanks with high def and hp can survive. The ranged dps risk dying instantly if they pull the boss by producing top threat or there's no tank in the fight.
Pharoah Ranubis and Belxur - where there are many adds and a good tank produces the threat to pull them and take the damage, or else the dps who is producing top threat could be swarmed and killed by the adds. In this case now, either the tank may have more motivation to adjust his build to produce more threat or the extreme dps has motivation to regulate his own threat.
In these examples, even with the presence of the healer the dps who ignores threat risks instant death due to the high damage from the boss or his many adds.
 
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Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
One could argue that baldok’s aoe is ‘anti-dps’ (though it’s more really ‘anti-anyone-who-doesn’t-add-armor/resists’, i.e., ‘not a tank’). Lann‘s reflect also is another mechanic that is more layered that just a ‘meatshield/heal tank and spank’ mechanic.

Yes, we did get 4 gold... but anyone who wasn’t there shouldn’t get the impression that it’s ‘just another nightly run’. One boss was with less than 10 seconds left (with a pretty solid crew) and we got lucky with a couple of Jacinda hops.
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Yes I'm replying to myself!

Also, I've added 2 new questions to the OP. Thanks to those who've replied so far!

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 1 to 40?


I've found it to be dangerously slow paced. Players at this level normally rotate between 3 - 4 spells unless they're willing to dish out extra sockets. Combat feels sluggish as players often have to take breaks between confrontations to regain their limited health and mana pools. The group enemies in minotaur lair, cathedral and other areas offer an opportunity for players to group with others of similar level. Unfortunately, I believe the pack size is a bit too large for its purposes. Instead of 4 - 5, limit the enemy packs to 3 at maximum. I think it's important to gauge how powerful players at this level should be, and optimize the difficulty to present them a challenging yet rewarding experience. I also strongly believe that weapons should allow 5 spells at a minimum without socket cost.

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 40 to 55 (Traven)?


Traven feels fairly balanced and slow at the same time. The medallion grind should be removed entirely from this stage. It's unnecessary and adds repetitiveness to mid-level content. Enemies are primary magic based, so squishier classes can face hurdles trying to complete their bounty runs. Of course this realm has not been overhauled yet as part of the ongoing improvements, so there are no main quests to follow. I'm sure it will be balanced once the developers have the chance to take a pass at it.

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 55 to 75 (Pyrron)?


I loathe Pyrron. It's slow, it's monotonous, it's grindy and it can range from laughably easy to insanely difficult depending on your choice of sub-class. I still feel that every single Pyrron Dungeon from 55 to 70 should be removed from the main story and simply converted into optional Heroic Dungeons.

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 75 to 90?


Combat-wise, this is probably the easiest period in the game. This is likely because I personally start to invest heavily into socketed gear at this point, so enemies just melt without much retaliation. Pacing-wise, it's the worst area of the game and players are prone to pack their bags and head on out due to it. There's no reason why the grind should be in its current state from 75 to 90. There are plenty of lower level zones that could be scaled up to bounty areas at this level for example. In terms of difficulty though... everything besides Gortrin was just too easy. It would be more interesting if bounties had those random perks that Dungeon bounties have.

What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 90 to 95 (Blighted Isles)?


This is the current end-game so it's supposed to be grindy. Bearing that in mind, I actually quite enjoyed it. The acceleration process needs some work, as players have a limited assortment of areas to run as they begin their Blight adventures, but once you start getting into the thick of things, there are always things to do, which is great. The faction and reputation system give capped players something to strive towards as well. In regards to combat and difficulty though... I enjoyed the Tier 1 zones, but the Tier 2 zones were just too much. Too many bounties.. for real I start falling asleep every time I run one. It just takes forever for lightning warriors to make headway on those venerables. Why have 100+ bounties in a single zone? Why not just 20 or so tough enemies like Abdelar or Bevyn from the Coille instead? Never been a huge fan of the bounty system, but the Blighted Content killed it for me.

Do you feel that content which is scaled and accessible for all players (Dungeons / Event Zones) is balanced well?


Event Zones are too easy and there are too many people competing for shared resources. Dungeons are too easy for elites and impossible for regular players. I won't go into too much detail on either since they are worthy of another thread on their own.

Do you feel that we have a good variety of difficulty levels for content? (Solo, Casual Group, Organized Group, Organized Elite Group, etc.)


Solo, yes. 99% of the game is Solo. Casual group... sort of, but it doesn't work. Areas like Fungal and Cathedral are for casual groups, but I hardly see players run there. I think if those places were scaled like Blackfury Gorge was, you would see teams run them far more frequently. Organized Group? Nope. Dungeons were supposed to fill that void, but currently they depend on organized elites to function. Without them carrying everyone else, it's not possible. We need easier Dungeons for newcomers and average players.

At what difficulty do you have the most enjoyment when solo?


This is tough, because I hate to solo. I don't play MMOs to solo bounties. Quests should be solo, and I love doing quests at my own pace.

At what difficulty do you have the most enjoyment when grouped?


We need a variety. Casual group areas like the old scaled Blackfury Gorge. Tougher group areas like Rift, if it were scaled and easier Dungeons. Finally, elite group areas like Dungeons and 95 Elders. I want each Elder tier to have its own optional Dungeon system like the 95 Elders have.

Do you feel that numbers [health, damage...] scale too far at higher levels?


For sure! It's hard to quantify stuff when damage is in the millions and health in the hundreds of thousands. Scale things linearly as they were in the past. It makes for better growth overall. I like incremental growth, not giant spurts every 5 levels.

Do you feel that certain stats are too powerful compared to others, or that certain stats are underpowered?


Vitality is too powerful. There are no diminishing returns on this stat, so players can create a giant health pool for themselves which serves as a buffer for their lack of defense. This also makes it difficult for healers to keep players up. If I have 350k health, and almost no defense, and take a large 150k hit from a critical strike - priests will be hard pressed to get your health up without a critical heal of their own. Vitality was boosted to 5 HP per point a while ago, but a healer's healing prowess wasn't increased to follow suit. I think vitality should be brought back down to 4 HP per point, and be subject to diminishing returns.

Vigor and Will are both useless. My friend with 3 bars of Will will regenerate 6.3 mana per second while in-combat. During Dungeons, players are almost always in combat so we'll use that value. A regular Heroic Cloister run can last around 15 minutes or 900 seconds. Meaning, this player would gain 5,670 mana throughout the run from Will. That's terrible.. that's a little over 5 mana potions. It wasn't even enough to refill their maximum mana. Vigor is similar to this. The health regeneration doesn't stack up to any class's regular healing feat / ability, and doesn't hold a candle to a healer's casts. So why have it? Players with a high amount of Vigor and Will should basically have enough regeneration to have a health or mana potion running at all times. This is how you build yourself for sustain. Chugging 150 mana potions per run is what players are currently doing because it's an alternative that lets them focus on massive amounts of DPS output instead.

Savagery and Brutality are also overpowered, no two ways about it. With enough brutality your attack or heal is essentially 4x to 5x more powerful than normal. With enough savagery this happens too often. I've seen the builds of those on US3 who are at the top of the charts by a wide margin. It's literally entirely focused on 3 stats: Expertise, Savagery and Brutality. Everything else is at 2 bars or even 0. The cap for savagery has to be brought down from 20% to 10%. Brutality's cap from 150% to 75%. Oooh boy shoot me now! This is what we've got to do to keep DPS in line, otherwise it'll go out of control like it currently is. The only way to keep up is to follow suit. Whether you're a tank that has to hold aggro, a healer that needs to refill their enormous health pool and lack of defense, or another DPS that wants to be relevant. It's a can't beat 'em, join 'em type situation, and that needs to change. Otherwise we're all going to be forced to focus on an offensive savagery / brutality build in order to have any impact on runs.

Certain Epic stats need to be looked at as well. I'll spend more time evaluating them, but Berserk for example could use a buff. You'd think as a tank that this would activate often, but this is not the case. Due to the amount of CC (stuns / freezes / slows) that occur during Dungeon runs, you'll be lucky to get a single set of Berserk charges complete before you make it to the Elder. I've watched, and this has been my experience. Instead of 30 hits for activation, it should be reduced to only a 15 charge requirement.

I'll answer the rest of the questions in a follow-up post.
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
Last edited
Continuation of my answers...

Do you feel that certain abilities are too powerful compared to others, or that certain abilities are underpowered?
I have one character of every sub-class but I don't play them all religiously. Some I haven't touched for 2 years. Some abilities that come to mind are Shadow Orbs detonation and Mana Fire... This will need some more time, research and experimentation to actually prove.

Some suggestions for Shadow Orbs: Remove the 50% increased chance to critically strike. For Mana Fire, increase the cooldown by 5 - 10 seconds.

Do you feel that certain talents are too powerful compared to others, or that certain talents are underpowered?
Same as above, I'll edit and update this after some trial and error.

Do you feel that certain buffs / boosts are too powerful compared to others, or that certain buffs / boosts are underpowered?
Mana potions.. maybe. The problem is that they are pretty much required for Dungeons, but the issue is that they are a better alternative to stats such as Will and Clarity. This allows players to focus on massive DPS stats like Expertise, Savagery and Brutality with impunity. All they need to do is drink hundreds of these potions to sustain their mana appetite. It shouldn't be this easy... certain stats shouldn't be so favored over others. Potions should augment stats, not replace them entirely.

Maybe Mana potion's effect should be based of the player's Will. If a player has a high amount of Will, they earn greater regeneration. If it's low... they earn less. Reward players for building a well-rounded character, not a one-trick DPS machine. So for example:

Increases your Will by X% over 30 seconds. The greater your Will, the greater your return.

Do you feel that the current options for measuring your build (attack / defense rating) are accurate?
They aren't accurate whatsoever. They don't take epic stats into consideration unless their effects are active. We need a better tool to give players a genuine impression of how solid their setup is. The current one is too simplistic.. it only takes a fraction of the overall build into account. It doesn't make sense either. If I have higher resistances than another player, but no points in vigor, I'll have less of a Defense Rating than someone with lower resistences and a high amount of Vigor. Who would last longer while being pummeled? Me. Who has a higher defensive rating? The other guy. This tool needs some serious work.

Do you feel that combat is too fast paced?
Spells and abilities are refreshing too fast as someone mentioned elsewhere. We need a smooth combat experience with a few staple abilities to rotate between, a few situationals with longer cooldown, a few 'Ultimate' powerhouse abilities that are saved for dire moments or precision attacks etc. Not just a spell spam-fest where everyone is a gunslinger from the wild west and bullets are flying in a constant stream.

Do you feel that the difference in performance due to a player's build choices are too wide?
This is from a 95 Elder Run. Everyone is level 95. Almost everyone in the image below is built for DPS.
1581868998691.png
Builds that focus on Savagery, Brutality and Expertise are 1 - 5. I know this because I've asked for the screenshots. Builds that are more well-rounded are 6, 7, 9 and 10. Note I didn't say 8. That one is also centered around the holy trinity of DPS stats mentioned earlier. It's just that it's an earth shaman so the damage doesn't compare. Builds that are kind of struggling are the rest. # 15 is about 17% of #1's damage. Everyone here is level 95, so the disparity is a bit frightening. Builds and gear matter a lot. We need to narrow that performance gap. #15 should be, at minimum, 50% of #1's damage in an ideal scenario. No one should be more than 5 times the damage of someone else their level. If level 95 players aren't sure how to build their characters then the system is either unintuitive or poorly explained... or both.

Do you feel that gear and builds are too complicated to understand?
Clearly, based on the chart above. That is just one example from dozens of similar runs. I know players in their 90s who have no clue what a reinforcement rune is, much less how to work them into their gear in an efficient and appropriate manner. It's needlessly convoluted. The layered approach to gear is the best, in my opinion.

Do you feel that RNG makes it difficult to create your desired setup?
Yes. Looking for a piece of Epic Gear with all 4 stats you desire? Good luck

Do you feel that it is too costly to create your desired setup?
In terms of sockets yes. This is why players are instructed not to create good gear until they're at or near max level. Otherwise they would run out of sockets at the time they need them the most. Upgrading a fully socketed build can often cost additional sockets if you wish to make minor adjustments. It shouldn't be free.. but it shouldn't be this expensive either.

Do you feel that Elder Levels are balanced?
No... any system that grants players a means to acquire an unlimited number of stat boosts isn't balanced. We spend more time at cap than reaching for it. Players, especially those on older servers such as US1, have such a vast number of Elder Levels that it is simply unattainable for any newcomer unless they put in 7+ years of grinding. If you can get 50k health from Elder Levels that is a lot of points in Vitality you could designate to another stat. Get rid of Elder level stat boosts entirely.

Do you feel that players can become TOO powerful?
Yes.

If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much damage output they should have, how would you rank them?
The Pure DPS Classes
  • Fire (AoE) / Shadow (Single Target DoTs) / Nature (Single Target)
The DPS / Support Classes (Ideally about 10 - 20% less DPS than the above)
  • Fury (Single Target, Warcry Buff / Debuff) / Marksman (Single Target Group Buffer) / Ice (AoE, Crowd Control)
The Tank Classes (Ideally about 20 - 30% less DPS than the Pure DPS)
  • Lightning (Single Target Tank) / Earth (AoE Tank)
The Healer Classes (Ideally about 30 - 40% less DPS than the Pure DPS)
  • Holy (Shield, Instant Heals) / Water (Heal over Time)

If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much threat output they should have, how would you rank them?
Lightning and Earth together and then all the rest in their current order.

If you had to arrange all the classes in order in regards to how much healing output they should have, how would you rank them?
Water and Holy together and then all the rest in their current order.

Do you feel that classes are able to fulfill their primary roles [Tank, DPS, Support] in group content?
Not in high level group content when the DPS is out of control. They can become tanks and dish out more damage than any other. Tanks aren't needed late game.

Do you feel that tanks are needed?
Not anymore.

Do you feel that healers / support are needed?
Barely. Only a single healer is really needed for a group of 15 - 25. Anything more and the run will suffer due to potential damage loss.

Do you feel that damage dealers are needed?
Without them it'd be bronze or less for everything.

Do you feel that certain sub-classes are too powerful if built a specific way?
Anyone who actually knows how to build a shadow priest or fury warrior, yes. But those are few and far between. When someone does figure it out though (while simultaneously focusing on crit builds), their damage is through the roof. This should be toned down.

Do you feel that certain sub-classes are underpowered for their role?
Marksman hunter, Ice wizard (DPS-wise) and Lightning warrior (threat generation).

Do you feel that certain hybrid builds are too powerful?
Shadow + Holy Hybrid most certainly is. No one should be able to tank, heal and be top DPS. That's MMO 101.
 
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Math Fish

Squirrel
Characters
Math Fish (M Hunter), Shama Fisha (W Shaman), Accursed Angelfish (S Priest)
Platform
Steam
Vitality is too powerful. There are no diminishing returns on this stat, so players can create a giant health pool for themselves which serves as a buffer for their lack of defense. This also makes it difficult for healers to keep players up. If I have 350k health, and almost no defense, and take a large 150k hit from a critical strike - priests will be hard pressed to get your health up without a critical heal of their own. Vitality was boosted to 5 HP per point a while ago, but a healer's healing prowess wasn't increased to follow suit. I think vitality should be brought back down to 4 HP per point, and be subject to diminishing returns.
I feel like the healing should be buffed instead of nerfing Vitality. I have a few reasons for saying this initially:
  • Reducing Vitality from 5 HP to 4 HP hurts the tanks just as much as it hurts everyone else. There needs to be a solution that allows tanks to tank while putting everyone else into their respective roles.
  • Diminishing returns on Vitality would cripple low-level players (quickly level out of gear; hodge-podge equipment) and have little to no effect on the elites (Vitality is, at a minimum, 2-starred just from having good equipment for their level).
  • Buffing healing from healers (by 25%, to be exact) would compensate for the increased health pools.
Now ... as for the "everybody is a tank" problem, I will be frank: This is more an issue of the developer philosophy than any actual numbers. Everybody is supposed to solo all game content (with the exception of elders, for some reason). Therefore, every class is going to have a certain degree of survivability for solo content. The underlying problem with this is that increasing defenses isn't the only way to increase survivability. For example, if I can kill everything before it gets to me (been doing it every 5 levels since Pyrron started: get a legendary at 1 or 6 and let it carry me to the next bow), then why the heck do I have Vitality, Armor, and Resistance? I don't need it. I would prefer if any buff/nerfs applied to Vitality (in addition to the healing buff) were class-specific. Here is a "brain vomited" version of what it could look like:
  • THROUGH BUFFING:
    • Warriors get 7 HP per point.
    • Shamans get 6 HP per point.
    • Everybody else gets 5 HP per point.
  • THROUGH NERFING
    • Warriors and Shamans keep 5 HP per point.
    • Hunters and Priests get 4 HP per point.
    • Wizards get 3 HP per point.
EDIT: In short, tanks should survive because they can tank it ... and DPS should survive because they can kill the problem.
Vigor and Will are both useless. My friend with 3 bars of Will will regenerate 6.3 mana per second while in-combat. During Dungeons, players are almost always in combat so we'll use that value. A regular Heroic Cloister run can last around 15 minutes or 900 seconds. Meaning, this player would gain 5,670 mana throughout the run from Will. That's terrible.. that's a little over 5 mana potions. It wasn't even enough to refill their maximum mana. Vigor is similar to this. The health regeneration doesn't stack up to any class's regular healing feat / ability, and doesn't hold a candle to a healer's casts. So why have it? Players with a high amount of Vigor and Will should basically have enough regeneration to have a health or mana potion running at all times. This is how you build yourself for sustain. Chugging 150 mana potions per run is what players are currently doing because it's an alternative that lets them focus on massive amounts of DPS output instead.
This gives me a few ideas. First, we could have a general buff to Vigor and Will while in dungeons (While in this dungeon, you Will and Vigor are x% more effective).

Second, I've been thinking this for a while, but now is a pretty good time to say it: Mana Potions beyond level 1 are practically worthless. Perhaps someone who pops 150 of them would benefit from the Mana Shield it gives, but for me? I *still* only use about 5 potions per run and I have little to no mana or mana regeneration capabilities ... and a lot of DPS spam. That is because every 3 minutes I can use my knife to give me a full health and mana restoration (like in FF1, for those who get the reference lol) ... and I have enough time outside of battle to fully restore my mana at key points in the dungeon with a mana potion. We will see if that changes with my sweet 7 ability bow I made with the event sockets the other day. NOW ... the actual change I had in mind is the following: Mana Potions begin to lose their effectiveness significantly after 5 levels.
  • Mana Potion level x has full effectiveness for levels x through x+4.
  • Mana Potion level x has 80%/60$/40% effectiveness at level x+5/x+6/x+7.
  • Mana Potion level x has 20% effectiveness from level x+8 onwards.
For example:
  • Mana Potion level 1 has full effectiveness for levels 1 through 5.
  • Mana Potion level 1 has 80%/60$/40% effectiveness at level 6/7/8.
  • Mana Potion level 1 has 20% effectiveness from level 9 onwards.
Alternatively, you can create a formula that applies a 20%/level diminishing returns debuff to mana potions after 4 levels. Here is what it would look like for a level 1 mana potion:
LevelMana restored in battleMana restored out of battle
1-510003000
68002400
75121536
8262786
9107322
 
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Black_Cvlt

Arch Wizard
Characters
Danger Zone, Black Cvlt, Coup de Grace, Crafty Hands
Platform
Android, PC
# 15 is about 17% of #1's damage. Everyone here is level 95, so the disparity is a bit frightening. Builds and gear matter a lot. We need to narrow that performance gap. #15 should be, at minimum, 50% of #1's damage in an ideal scenario.
Nature Hunter with 20 mil damage after 95's run? He needs to delete his char. 50% of top damage for trashy build that was made without any effort? Brilliant idea.
If level 95 players aren't sure how to build their characters then the system is either unintuitive or poorly explained... or both.
If level 95 players aren't sure how to build their characters then they're completely noobs. V&H is not a hardcore game, so don't try to make it even more casual.
 

Halleebell

Squirrel
Characters
Hallee/Freyra
Platform
iOS, PC
What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 1 to 40?

There are simply to many zones for these levels. Even with out the society membership you are capable of stay with quest lvl through out it all. Especially if you are doing side quests. Im running on a new alt and yes I have the membership but I do not need to kill every bounty if I don’t want to. I can understand why there’s so many zones but it’s unnecessary. when your 75-90 have very little to do.
What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 55 to 75 (Pyrron)?
now I guess I’m the odd ball here. But I think the med grind is necessary to keep players from progressing to fast. Not only that the quest line is very long with multiple quests happening at once. You also have a rebirth during this time to either a) break up the grind or b) look forward to the rebirth once you get to the collie. The only thing I’d say on this is maybe make fewer keys to grind for and or make a vender like in the 75 zones and or 95 you can buy stuff like cool gear that fit the theme of it.
What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 90 to 95 (Blighted Isles)?
Hmm this is hard for me. I love the new zones( other then a few of the colors of the zones) Getting the rep working for mounts, preps. The scaling is a plus as well. But these zones with 100 blue bounty’s is tiresome. It just takes to long I do not have the time nor the patience for it. I solo almost 100% of the time. You can imagine how long it takes to run all zones. I normally stick to the first ones.
for balance as a warrior it takes me twice as long to kill a single boss then it does others I know Iv watched on the map. A person running from boss to boss killing. Yes yes I’m a tank 😉
What are your thoughts on the overall state of balance between players and content ranging from 75 to 90?
These zones thoe easier when in combat are boring? There are just not enough of them to keep players interested. Iv always said having a few “fungal” zones once you hit 80 would make this grind way more enjoyable. I think the drop in xp also hurt. I find myself looking for zing at every turn just to get a bit more xp.
Do you feel that the difference in performance due to a player's build choices are too wide?
no, Each player prefers different build types I just think they shouldn’t interfere with other class roles.
Do you feel that Elder Levels are balanced?
It takes a lot for it to truly make an impact.
Do you feel that players can become TOO powerful?
No, ^^statement above. Also if you didn’t have elder soul lvls how long would people stay for. In my opinion not very long. In the short amount of time Iv been here Iv seen plenty of people leave due to nothing to do. This is one of the few things after you’ve reached lvl cap you have to do to keep the game interesting in a way.
 
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Math Fish

Squirrel
Characters
Math Fish (M Hunter), Shama Fisha (W Shaman), Accursed Angelfish (S Priest)
Platform
Steam
From what I'm hearing about balance in general, I feel like the following is a good summary of class balance:
  • DPS (and the resulting accounting for it) is a classic example of power creep (or something else that I'm not willing to discuss in forums). DPS stats go up --> enemy stats go up --> cycle a few times as the level cap goes up --> now non-DPS is mostly irrelevant and DPS is required to get anything done quickly. Heck, I'd say if the elites knew how to manage aggro, then even holy priests would be mostly useless ... but maybe I'm stepping "out of line" here. lol
  • Holy healers are alright. Other healers are pretty much irrelevant.
  • Tanks are utter crap because the best offense in this game is ... well ... is good offense.
The counter? Lean a bit towards the idea that classes have roles and should stick to them.
  • Holy Priests should do next to no damage in groups, but can solo via healing and Blasting (and maybe some other mechanics not yet in game - like damage reflection?).
  • Shadow Priests can have their damage, but it should cost health based on that damage to do so.
  • Fire Wizards should not have CC (except Crushed from the shear overwhelming force that is them), but massive aoe burst damage (kill or be killed).
  • Ice Wizards should have lots of CC (slows, stuns, damage reduction), but noticeably less damage compared to Fire Wizards.
  • Nature Hunter... why do they have more AOE than Marksmans? They should be balanced single target burst/poison dot DPS,
  • Marksman Hunters should be well-rounded ... not the best in anything, not the worst in anything.
  • Shamans ... I honestly don't know what they are supposed to be.
  • Lightning Warriors should be the threat gods (and maybe Earth should be more tanky?).
  • Fury Warriors are essentially Berserkers ... that can't use Berserk in groups. lol They should be the most screaming-est, most testosterone-filled, run-into-the-fray-and-die fighters there ever were. Their sustain should be through Physical Protection, Vigor (more effective version), Glory (a longer duration one?), and Lifesteal (from morrrrre attacks). This was the class I wanted to play initially, but immediately rejected it when I looked at the talents.
  • Also, contrary to what appears to be the popular opinion, I believe players really *should* have to manage threat in a group situation. How else can you have more than 1 tank class and keep healing and DPS in check? If the DPS can tank ... they need a debuff, or you need to buff enemy damage and tank tanky-ness.
Afterthought: Maybe I should make this latter part its own thread ... or two. hehe
 
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Giruv

Merchant
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
The counter? Lean a bit towards the idea that classes have roles and should stick to them.
I think it just won't work because a class can easily go hybrid and having class that have defensive+offensive sub classes make them both a tank and/or healer and a Damage dealer. At the same time I don't want to remove the ability for player to go hybrid since it increase the number of viable built and increase the game replayability.
 

KAVE

Adventurer
Royal Guardian
Characters
See Signature
Platform
PC
I think it just won't work because a class can easily go hybrid and having class that have defensive+offensive sub classes make them both a tank and/or healer and a Damage dealer. At the same time I don't want to remove the ability for player to go hybrid since it increase the number of viable built and increase the game replayability.
Sorry, but if any one build is able to Tank, Heal and be one of the top damage dealers at the same time it doesn't increase the number of viable builds at all. In fact, it reduces them. We see that now with tanks being useless for 95 Elders. DPS can hold aggro better and take the damage without dying. And I'm not just talking about priest hybrids. I've seen fury warriors, shadow priests and fire / ice wizards all tank the 95s or Dungeons and do fine. They usually get gold since having a tank along just lowers the group's damage anyway.
 

Kitty the Hunter

Adventurer
Platform
PC
The counter? Lean a bit towards the idea that classes have roles and should stick to them.
This type of arrangement for classes has been tried and failed here years ago. The reason we moved away from this was mainly due to 2 reasons, one it was hard if not impossible to do bounty runs solo for some classes, the other was the endless requests for class adjustments. Many players are familiar with this arrangement from other games and expect it but we do things differently here. I realize there is a problem with the balance of classes but this is not a viable solution.
 

Kitty the Hunter

Adventurer
Platform
PC
Most, if not all, the evidence for needing to adjust the classes stems from dungeons and high/maxed players, usually with heavy investments in their toons. Instead of making drastic changes to the entire combat and class systems, lets look at these areas of content first.
 

Zeph

Adventurer
Characters
Zephyr Arya
Platform
PC
I agree Kitty, and let's not forget a good proportion of players never run dungeons from choice. I don't pretend to understand all dungeon mechanics but it seems sensible to look there first.
 
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SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
TBH, damage-wise, I think V and H has amazingly good class balance. I've seen amazing damage done by almost all the specializations (except maybe Water Shaman, but I've been assuming that's due to not many capped out players on it on US2), including seeing a lightning warrior hit like a truck (I assume some skills were Fury skills, but I say Lightning Warrior as the main talent points/mastery the person had).

I do not see rampant OP builds running around. I'd say we have like 6 OP people on US2 total right now (counting myself). As such, I think it would be a waste to try and balance "endgame perfected builds" class vs. class, as they all seem to be able to do well. Yes, if you invest a LOT and tweak a LOT, and ignore mana related things, you can crush the content. Yes, some classes when maxed out are probably slightly better than others.

It would be nice for the performance gap to narrow somehow, but I don't know how you can do that. Could reduce the total # of sockets (or increase the # of free sockets). Could get rid of the different sized runes (so all runes of a level are the same value, or make abilities not linked to gear, but linked to character level).

I've witnessed people who (from my watching them) appear just not to click their abilities as fast as they refresh and therefore lose a lot of damage. We can't do anything about that.

I've seen shadow priests casting shadow blast (character centered AoE) while being far away from the mobs. I've seen a hybrid priest with the same skills as myself, but using runes 20 levels below the character's level and essentially doing nothing in an event zone.

I gained like 5%+ more damage by casting gloom before shadow bolt (instead of shadow bolt before gloom). What game balancing can we do to narrow the gap between me before changing that and me after? (I'd been casting shadow bolt first solely because that was the ability I put on my mace first.)

I rack my brain, but I just can't figure out how to narrow the performance gap without a complete overhaul. Is that really worth it? Surely that's part of a game, though, is learning how your abilities work, and improving and getting better at it.

As for stats, the diminishing returns thing is very odd. It should make the performance gap smaller! Instead, what I suspect happens is people invest too heavily in some stats (like cranking armor on a tank or cranking savagery on a DPS) and neglect other stats and create a gap between them and someone who balanced across many stats.

There are two big annoyances that I have relating to overall balance that I think could be addressed, however:
1. Everyone should be able to critical hit elders. When the cap was lvl 20, this might make sense to need to get a big group to fight lady's fate and gnogging lvl 10 elder bane onto your lvl 16 weapons. But, there's no normal leveling person who is going to invest in elder bane up until lvl 80+, as some lvl 90 just comes and poofs the elder for you until then. When these people pop into the dungeon, they lose a giant portion of their damage against an elder. Additionally, if a few lvl 20's did try adn team up on a lvl 20 elder, they will be really weak, and I'd rather encourage people to fight elders at level if possible somehow.

2. Characters on the 1's and 6's are WAY better than characters in between! (and then ppl at cap) This is because active rune size is the most important thing and the crafted weapon runes are scaled 4 levels higher than drop runes. I remember as a pure holy priest at lvl 81 topping the damage charts on many dungeon runs simply because of my giant ... holy bolt rune. How to fix it? Tie most of a skill's base damage to character level and make it so the weapon rune enables usage of the skill and augment that value (make the "weapon augment" 2 or 3 times what ring augments are now (ring augments are around a 5% boost to a skill, but vary based on DoT vs. instant and cooldown/cast time of the spell)).

Item 1 would be easy to do. Item 2 would require a good bit more work, but I think could be implemented in the current game without requiring a complete overhaul. You could do it in a way making sure values came out about the same as they are now for a max-geared character, with all the "benefit" of the change going to characters without maxed runes. (and hopefully mitigate the 1's and 6's problem)
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
Platform
PC
So I have a question. In doing an elder run I pulled up charts. I noticed the only toon that showed in "threat output" was a hunter. Any thoughts why that is when there were at least 5 warriors in the group?
 
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