justbequiet

Villager
Platform
  1. iOS
  2. PC
So I have tryed to beat this unkillable ladder 8 times, and everytime the entire group just dies at the fire fairy. And then i find out there are actully people saying it's too ez. It's not ez, it's broken, it needs to be nerfed or just delete it entirely.
100%! In my opinion, event zones are one of the few places where new and old players can play together to achieve a specific goal. Making hard ladder too difficult to progress for all but the most well geared high level players is the antithesis of what content in an event zone is supposed to be.

The last thing we want to project is that some players “cant progress” through an event zone content coz they’re not well geared or high level enough. We have raids for that already and having it spill over to event zones is worrisome and non-inclusive to me.
 
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Ashwin K

Hunter
Characters
AshK , ashwk
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
100%! In my opinion, event zones are one of the few places where new and old players can play together to achieve a specific goal. Making hard ladder too difficult to progress for all but the most well geared high level players is the antithesis of what content in an event zone is supposed to be.

The last thing we want to project is that some players “cant progress” through an event zone content coz they’re not well geared or high level enough. We have raids for that already and having it spill over to event zones is worrisome and non-inclusive to me.
Nobody forces you to do empowered ladder. If you are not good enough then please don't do emp ladder. It is ultimately your choice to do it or not. Please dont whine it is so hard and say nerf it or remove it. You can still achieve everything the event has to offer by doing normal ladder and other quests.
 
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Argus

Servant of Mallok
Characters
Argus Jessengith, Argus Shadow, Argus Skyhawk
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Nobody forces you to do empowered ladder. If you are not good enough then please don't do emp ladder. It is ultimately your choice to do it or not. Please dont whine it is so hard and say nerf it or remove it. You can still achieve everything the event has to offer by doing normal ladder and other quests.
I agree, i believe its time to insert a section in event zone where only well coordinated team with enough fire power and great gear can succeed. Not everyone likes to be afk in event zone. Unfortunately in the current scenario the event zone boss encourage people to be afk. Only a handful of high level players are more than enough to kill them. I absolutely respect and understand players who like a holiday theme in event zone but there are players also who like challenging content with reward.

Being said that the current server lag is killing the fun for empower ladder. I only succeed once in their as less number of people and got killed probably 9 times and all thanks to lag. I can't even see where the fire circle starts. And when i can see i am already on top of it and dead. This has been raised many time by many players please improve your server capacity. Adding new content will have no effect if it adds lag also.
 

justbequiet

Villager
Platform
  1. iOS
  2. PC
Last edited
Nobody forces you to do empowered ladder. If you are not good enough then please don't do emp ladder. It is ultimately your choice to do it or not. Please dont whine it is so hard and say nerf it or remove it. You can still achieve everything the event has to offer by doing normal ladder and other quests.
I can run emp ladder with other players just fine as I've stocked enough premium consumables and invested in crafted gear to pass empowered Anosia. Difficult yes, impossible? not with what I have. :)

This is not a whine, this is a challenge on changing the status quo since I am empathizing with other players (particularly new ones) who feel increasingly frustrated about their experience with the hard ladder since they neither have the high rarity gear nor the consumables that some players have. There is nothing they could do to work around the wall.

How can you make hard ladder be challenging but still inclusive to less developed/new players? Propping up stats is the easy way out but I like Math Fish suggestion of making the bosses more mechanically challenging. Okyris (post-nerf) and Grinchta (post-graphic fix) are good examples of ways to add more mechanically challenging bosses w/o alienating players.

I would like to see Hard ladder as more a test of in-game knowledge, and boss mechanics vs. dependency on high lvl gear/consumables to run the content. Empowered Anosia is nowhere close to that.

As a side note, I can assure you that unless you either play 24/7 or pay crowns, you definitely cannot achieve everything in the event by just doing normal ladder and other quests. At most, perhaps 1 expensive mount, 1 outfit and a pet.
 

Ashwin K

Hunter
Characters
AshK , ashwk
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
I can run emp ladder with other players just fine as I've stocked enough premium consumables and invested in crafted gear to pass empowered Anosia. Difficult yes, impossible? not with what I have. :)

This is not a whine, this is a challenge on changing the status quo since I am empathizing with other players (particularly new ones) who feel increasingly frustrated about their experience with the hard ladder.

How can you make hard ladder be challenging but not alienating to less developed/new players? Propping up stats is the easy way out but I like Math Fish suggestion of making the bosses more mechanically challenging. Okyris (post-nerf) and Grinchta (post-graphic fix) are good examples of ways to add more mechanically challenging bosses w/o alienating players. Hard ladder would be more a test of in-game knowledge, and boss mechanics vs. dependency on high lvl gear/consumables to run the content. Empowered Anosia is nowhere close to that.

As a side note, I can assure you that unless you either play 24/7 or pay crowns, you definitely cannot achieve everything in the event by just doing normal ladder and other quests. At most, perhaps 1 expensive mount, 1 outfit and a pet.
I don't know what kind of examples you are stating here xd. Okyris post-nerf was pretty much a punch-bag which was utterly bland and boring and never ever felt grinchta to be challenging of any sort as you quote it to be. Btw most players only aim for either mount or costume and rest they spend on consumables which is easy to get it done.
 

justbequiet

Villager
Platform
  1. iOS
  2. PC
I don't know what kind of examples you are stating here xd. Okyris post-nerf was pretty much a punch-bag which was utterly bland and boring and never ever felt grinchta to be challenging of any sort as you quote it to be. Btw most players only aim for either mount or costume and rest they spend on consumables which is easy to get it done.
I've seen people have healthy discussion on the mechanics for both bosses and people when they first spawned and almost all of them have come out positive since even less developed/new players have a chance to learn and participate. It may not be challenging for you but its certainly got people to not afk in ez and think. Thats a step in the right direction imo.
 

Ekimie

Hunter
Royal Guardian
Platform
  1. Steam
As a side note, I can assure you that unless you either play 24/7 or pay crowns, you definitely cannot achieve everything in the event by just doing normal ladder and other quests. At most, perhaps 1 expensive mount, 1 outfit and a pet
Ez was never meant that you could get every single item available in a single year. One expensive mount, an outfit and a pet are already a lot. Even with empowered ladder daily you wouldn't make all items. I'm pretty sure the amount of tears needed for the most expensive item is at level with the tears for most expensive item last year. EMP ladder is a bonus, not a requirement. If anything you achieve your tears three days sooner.
 
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Ashwin K

Hunter
Characters
AshK , ashwk
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
I've seen people have healthy discussion on the mechanics for both bosses and people when they first spawned and almost all of them have come out positive since even less developed/new players have a chance to learn and participate. It may not be challenging for you but its certainly got people to not afk in ez and think. Thats a step in the right direction imo.
Well I would like to know from you what was the challenging mechanics for Okyris post nerf which you found to be interesting. Think whichever u quote is already available in the form of normal ladder. Why empowered ladder has to be changed just because you don't like it. There are several people who likes it and if don't like it u are free to ignore and nobody is gonna force u to do it.
 

Halleebell

Squirrel
Characters
Hallee/Freyra
Platform
  1. iOS
  2. PC
Well I would like to know from you what was the challenging mechanics for Okyris post nerf which you found to be interesting. Think whichever u quote is already available in the form of normal ladder. Why empowered ladder has to be changed just because you don't like it. There are several people who likes it and if don't like it u are free to ignore and nobody is gonna force u to do it.
Okyris was basically the same thing as the fire fairy. But more fine tuned. The sun runes spawned in more locations but they were smaller. Which made him the most interesting boss. You had to move to not die just like the fairy. The problem with him is when you have that many spawns and 60+ players trying to kill him, lag was so bad that players died more then they should have (can’t see the runes and or frozen in place) and a lot of players would simply be kicked off game. It was a bit of a cluster. With the fire fairy we still see the lag causing delays with seeing fire. Personally I like okyris much better then this solid floor of fire in large patches in a small space. They are pretty equal, one just seems more put together then the other or more thought out? Idk. If you didn’t like okyris why do you like the fire fairy so much? Just because it’s meant for the more elite build?
 

justbequiet

Villager
Platform
  1. iOS
  2. PC
Last edited
Well I would like to know from you what was the challenging mechanics for Okyris post nerf which you found to be interesting. Think whichever u quote is already available in the form of normal ladder. Why empowered ladder has to be changed just because you don't like it. There are several people who likes it and if don't like it u are free to ignore and nobody is gonna force u to do it.
Just like in Grinchta, the light show (yellow circles) is the most distinct feature of Okyris. Since the damage/graphic/frequency nerf, you still cannot stand in 1 place and attack Okyris when you like it. Its not the be all-end-all but its a step in the right direction to make the boss mechanically engaged w/o making it impossible for other players. That requires you to think more than spank and tank and the damage for stepping on the yellow circle gives you enough leeway to correct yourself vs. the 1-hit KO of Anosia.

Also just as several people may like the current iteration, there are several others who do not like it, not just me. Please do not assume that its only I that has a problem with it as it was also mentioned a few times on this very thread. I am happy to send you the posts if you cannot find it on this thread :)

Ez was never meant that you could get every single item available in a single year. One expensive mount, an outfit and a pet are already a lot. Even with empowered ladder daily you wouldn't make all items. I'm pretty sure the amount of tears needed for the most expensive item is at level with the tears for most expensive item last year. EMP ladder is a bonus, not a requirement. If anything you achieve your tears three days sooner.
Agreed, there is no way you can get every single item on a single year. I was merely responding to Ashwin's comment that:
You can still achieve everything the event has to offer by doing normal ladder and other quests.
But since Ekimie mentioned that hard ladder is optional and if anything, you achieve the tears a few days sooner, please take note that unlike other event zones, Twilight vale gives fewer daily event currency so any incremental increase is actually more impactful. I've taken the liberty of throwing it on a spreadsheet and the addition of Hard ladder constitutes approximately 63% increase in daily currency turnout.
1620630020300.png
So what does this translate to in terms of days? Its quite significant actually. By being able to run hard ladder everyday, you can save anywhere between 2 days to 17 days depending on what you want and how much you play. Now this numbers will change if you include the 1 time quests but its suffice to say that the impact of being able to complete hard ladder does not feel anywhere close to just a bonus in my opinion.
1620630430000.png
 

Ashwin K

Hunter
Characters
AshK , ashwk
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Okyris was basically the same thing as the fire fairy. But more fine tuned. The sun runes spawned in more locations but they were smaller. Which made him the most interesting boss. You had to move to not die just like the fairy. The problem with him is when you have that many spawns and 60+ players trying to kill him, lag was so bad that players died more then they should have (can’t see the runes and or frozen in place) and a lot of players would simply be kicked off game. It was a bit of a cluster. With the fire fairy we still see the lag causing delays with seeing fire. Personally I like okyris much better then this solid floor of fire in large patches in a small space. They are pretty equal, one just seems more put together then the other or more thought out? Idk. If you didn’t like okyris why do you like the fire fairy so much? Just because it’s meant for the more elite build?
Lol I was talking about okyris post nerf where they removed the light runes
 

Ashwin K

Hunter
Characters
AshK , ashwk
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Just like in Grinchta, the light show (yellow circles) is the most distinct feature of Okyris. Since the damage/graphic/frequency nerf, you still cannot stand in 1 place and attack Okyris when you like it. Its not the be all-end-all but its a step in the right direction to make the boss mechanically engaged w/o making it impossible for other players. That requires you to think more than spank and tank and the damage for stepping on the yellow circle gives you enough leeway to correct yourself vs. the 1-hit KO of Anosia.

Also just as several people may like the current iteration, there are several others who do not like it, not just me. Please do not assume that its only I that has a problem with it as it was also mentioned a few times on this very thread. I am happy to send you the posts if you cannot find it on this thread :)


Agreed, there is no way you can get every single item on a single year. I was merely responding to Ashwin's comment that:

But since Ekimie mentioned that hard ladder is optional and if anything, you achieve the tears a few days sooner, please take note that unlike other event zones, Twilight vale gives fewer daily event currency so any incremental increase is actually more impactful. I've taken the liberty of throwing it on a spreadsheet and the addition of Hard ladder constitutes approximately 63% increase in daily currency turnout.
View attachment 12602
So what does this translate to in terms of days? Its quite significant actually. By being able to run hard ladder everyday, you can save anywhere between 2 days to 17 days depending on what you want and how much you play. Now this numbers will change if you include the 1 time quests but its suffice to say that the impact of being able to complete hard ladder does not feel anywhere close to just a bonus in my opinion.
View attachment 12604
Don't you mention Okyris post-nerf and for your information light runes were removed and now u quote that to be interesting. I think you are trying to force feed your opinion but it is a bland justification 😛
 

justbequiet

Villager
Platform
  1. iOS
  2. PC
Last edited
Don't you mention Okyris post-nerf and for your information light runes were removed and now u quote that to be interesting. I think you are trying to force feed your opinion but it is a bland justification 😛
Well, if its pre-nerf, i stand corrected, either way, my justification doesnt change, as a focus on mechanics on hard ladders adds challenge but still gives new/less developed players a fighting chance in progressing hard ladder. Right now, Anosia can 1-hit KO all but the most highly geared, consumable stacked players so theres no fighting chance for new/less developed to progress on hard ladder. As this has happened several times since hard ladder started. Ladder leads would literally say “ready your buffs and rezzies” before the fight.

I would love to hear why you believe my justification is bland as I feel that I’ve put some thought into my arguments based on other feedback I learned in-game. In fact, I would love to hear you tackle on my argument directly as I've completed hard ladder almost everyday with a good group.:) As the devs mentioned, this is a test and any discourse here would likely influence the development of hard ladder moving forward. :) I am open to changing my mind if your rationale is justified as I am looking at this by finding a balance between challenge and inclusivity.
 

Ashwin K

Hunter
Characters
AshK , ashwk
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Well, if its pre-nerf, i stand corrected, either way, my justification doesnt change, as a focus on mechanics on hard ladders adds challenge but still gives new/less developed players a fighting chance in progressing hard ladder. Right now, Anosia can 1-hit KO all but the most highly geared, consumable stacked players so theres no fighting chance for them to run hard ladder. As this has happened several times since hard ladder started. Ladder leads would literally say “ready your buffs and rezzies” before the fight.

I would love to hear why you believe my justification is bland as I feel that I’ve put some thought into my arguments based on other feedback I learned in-game. Rather than nitpicking specific lapses in my memory, i would love to hear you tackle on my argument directly.:) As the devs mentioned, this is a test and any discourse here would likely influence the development of hard ladder moving forward. :) I am open to changing my mind if your rationale is justified as I am looking at this by finding a balance between challenge and inclusivity.
The only justification you came up for emp ladder being unfair for the so called new/less developed players is that hardcore players gets all tears required for cosmetics faster than the newbies which itself is pointless since everyone can get all the goods by doing quests and normal ladder. There is a reason why Devs named it as Empowered Ladder and it is only OPTIONAL. Don't like then don't do. Simple!!
 

justbequiet

Villager
Platform
  1. iOS
  2. PC
Last edited
The only justification you came up for emp ladder being unfair for the so called new/less developed players is that hardcore players gets all tears required for cosmetics faster than the newbies which itself is pointless since everyone can get all the goods by doing quests and normal ladder. There is a reason why Devs named it as Empowered Ladder and it is only OPTIONAL. Don't like then don't do. Simple!!

"The don't like it, dont do it" argument is a very shallow and very narrow rationale. All your argument tells me is that "the status quo is perfect and nothing can be better than what it is now and it doesnt matter what anyone else' experience is (aka stonewalling)".

This entire thread's purpose is to make a concerted effort to explore other avenues to keep the challenge of hard ladder while giving people a fighting chance to run it w/o having to resort to just a propping up the stats of Anosia (which can just one-hit KO at least 1/3 of a group) if thats fun for you, then good on ya but making it just as fun for other w/o taking away the challenge would be great too!

I would like to echo that challenge can come in many forms than the current iteration of propping up numbers.

IMO, making hard ladder mechanically challenging rather than statistically challenging (where equipment/consumables are more critical to success) will make it fun and exciting to a broader audience. Kave's argument is one example of a way to tweak Anosia that I'd love to discuss further

 

Black_Cvlt

Arch Wizard
Characters
Danger Zone, Black Cvlt, Coup de Grace, High Voltage
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
I've taken the liberty of throwing it on a spreadsheet and the addition of Hard ladder constitutes approximately 63% increase in daily currency turnout.
[...]
So what does this translate to in terms of days? Its quite significant actually. By being able to run hard ladder everyday, you can save anywhere between 2 days to 17 days depending on what you want and how much you play.
... yes, well-geared player will buy event item faster. So what? Jeez, it's just a worthless skin that does nothing to player power. Get over it lol.

Also, you can count playtime required to buy mount with normal + emp. ladders or only normal ladder. Normal ladder requires less time and resources.
Plus, (at least on EU1) capped players often spend additional resources and help others to pass through emp. ladder without any rewards. They fully deserve to get their rewards faster.
 
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Ekimie

Hunter
Royal Guardian
Platform
  1. Steam
There are both pre's and cons to name for the empowered ladder. I think from here on it might be best to leave the decision on whether it stays or leaves, with the Devs. I don't think more arguments will have added value.
 
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dovewing912

Hunter
Characters
MonkahMan EmberJean
Platform
  1. Steam
Nobody forces you to do empowered ladder. If you are not good enough then please don't do emp ladder. It is ultimately your choice to do it or not. Please dont whine it is so hard and say nerf it or remove it. You can still achieve everything the event has to offer by doing normal ladder and other quests.
First off the only reason I'm trying to do it is for a quest, so back up a bit. I know everything must be ez for u in life but get over urself.
 

dovewing912

Hunter
Characters
MonkahMan EmberJean
Platform
  1. Steam
There are both pre's and cons to name for the empowered ladder. I think from here on it might be best to leave the decision on whether it stays or leaves, with the Devs. I don't think more arguments will have added value.
If our arguments come to nothing, then i'd suggest to everyone to trash the quest and ignore the hard ladder entirely. I've done this 10 times and the entire group dies at the same boss. So if that doe not scream broken then I geuss we must be the problem.
 

V

Mad Otter Games
Developer
If our arguments come to nothing, then i'd suggest to everyone to trash the quest and ignore the hard ladder entirely. I've done this 10 times and the entire group dies at the same boss. So if that doe not scream broken then I geuss we must be the problem.

Sounds like perhaps your group is not cut out for the empowered ladder? I've seen and been a part of plenty of successful runs. Some groups will fail - that is the nature of challenging content. For those situations, the regular ladder is available for you.
 
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