Zaphyra

Master Villager
Characters
Retired
Platform
Android, PC
Actually we don't need the trash stats to continue crafting or farming. There can be better ways. Why not make all stats useful but only for specific builds/purposes/roles?
I feel like the only really "trash" stats are Vigor and Will... if they refilled health/mana at a rate that was really useful, then players would definitely have a difficult time choosing which stats to keep. However, we cannot make it too easy to build the perfect gear set... otherwise players might max too quickly and lose interest. 😬

Did you have any specific ideas for new skills or improvements to our existing stats? 🙂
 

sirbabbo

Warrior
Platform
iOS
I feel like the only really "trash" stats are Vigor and Will... if they refilled health/mana at a rate that was really useful, then players would definitely have a difficult time choosing which stats to keep. However, we cannot make it too easy to build the perfect gear set... otherwise players might max too quickly and lose interest. 😬

Did you have any specific ideas for new skills or improvements to our existing stats? 🙂
Just following on, I do think we need to have consequences if we have certain stats more then other stats. Like example, brutality after base value adding a support rune would decrease armor/magic resist by the same amount. I think this is more a threat issue more then anything and believe me that is one confusing random (yes random) stat we have.
 

Math Fish

Squirrel
Royal Guardian
Characters
Math Fish (Marksman), Shama Fisha (Water), Accursed Angelfish (Shadow), Logical Loach (Fire)
Platform
PC, Steam
I feel like I'm finally starting to get somewhere with the combat portion of the critique series. The idea I want to try communicating (later) can be summed up quite nicely: The complexity of the underlying systems (stats, gear, etc) does not match the complexity of combat. Basically, getting ready for combat is far more complex than combat itself. This makes the systems feel needlessly complex and the combat feel empty or anticlimactic. I've been able to lay out a lot of the details for the combat side of it and have a basic idea what the stat portion will look like as well. Thank you all for commenting and being patient with me. This is turning out more ... um ... complex than I thought it would be. hehe

Anyway, I am still open to thoughts on the original post or this one or anything related to stats really. Anything could trigger something in my mind to make this make sense in my mind.
 
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Zaphyra

Master Villager
Characters
Retired
Platform
Android, PC
I feel like I'm finally starting to get somewhere with the combat portion of the critique series. The idea I want to try communicating (later) can be summed up quite nicely: The complexity of the underlying systems (stats, gear, etc) does not match the complexity of combat. Basically, getting ready for combat is far more complex than combat itself. This makes the systems feel needlessly complex and the combat feel empty or anticlimactic. I've been able to lay out a lot of the details for the combat side of it and have a basic idea what the stat portion will look like as well. Thank you all for commenting and being patient with me. This is turning out more ... um ... complex than I thought it would be. hehe

Anyway, I am still open to thoughts on the original post or this one or anything related to stats really. Anything could trigger something in my mind to make this make sense in my mind.
I'm glad you're continuing your critique series. ☺(y)

I've crafted 1000s of pieces of gear/weapons... and I've learned a LOT, through trial and error. Now that I'm familiar with our crafting system, it doesn't feel that complicated to me and my only gripe, is that I can't see the numeric cap for all my stats and/or see how diminishing returns affect my stats... so that I can make informed choices, about when to stop adding points to my main stats and begin adding points to a sub-stat.

I also think part of the reason players find the crafting system confusing... is because many don't begin crafting their own gear, until later in the game. This is understandable, because we must craft at least 30 of each item, to master a recipe and begin crafting rare/blue gear. Many new players never get beyond white/green gear, because they don't know they must master a recipe, in order to craft blues... which may be enhanced to purple. Crafting 30 of each piece of gear, also requires a LOT of mats and bag space... new players are usually trying to sell mats to earn gold and many don't have much bag space. 😬

I think the crafting tutorials should supply enough free mats, for players to master their first set of gear recipes... craft their first set of blue gear... enhance it to purple and add preparations. So new players will understand the crafting process, from start to finish... and be encouraged to continue crafting their own gear, as they level-up. I think crafting their own gear and trying new builds, as they level-up... will help a lot of players understand how our stats system works and what stats they enjoy using. :)
 

sirbabbo

Warrior
Platform
iOS
Last edited
I'm glad you're continuing your critique series. ☺(y)

I've crafted 1000s of pieces of gear/weapons... and I've learned a LOT, through trial and error. Now that I'm familiar with our crafting system, it doesn't feel that complicated to me and my only gripe, is that I can't see the numeric cap for all my stats and/or see how diminishing returns affect my stats... so that I can make informed choices, about when to stop adding points to my main stats and begin adding points to a sub-stat.

I also think part of the reason players find the crafting system confusing... is because many don't begin crafting their own gear, until later in the game. This is understandable, because we must craft at least 30 of each item, to master a recipe and begin crafting rare/blue gear. Many new players never get beyond white/green gear, because they don't know they must master a recipe, in order to craft blues... which may be enhanced to purple. Crafting 30 of each piece of gear, also requires a LOT of mats and bag space... new players are usually trying to sell mats to earn gold and many don't have much bag space. 😬

I think the crafting tutorials should supply enough free mats, for players to master their first set of gear recipes... craft their first set of blue gear... enhance it to purple and add preparations. So new players will understand the crafting process, from start to finish... and be encouraged to continue crafting their own gear, as they level-up. I think crafting their own gear and trying new builds, as they level-up... will help a lot of players understand how our stats system works and what stats they enjoy using. :)
Agreed on the tutorial needing more supplies to make sense... I mean imagine this as a new. So if I mix blue and purple gear I get legendary and I get to choose my stats??????? What the MooooOoo (wanted more colorful language but decided this would do best). I find this frustrating at best about how this explains gongmenting? Stats what?
This alone would be frustrating when crafting gear to find the stats.. then I’m told if I going to gnogment I get to pick stats...

But side note crafting weapons is best overall if you get lucky/ and then realizing what stats/glyphs you need but only counts at lvl 91 and up... sorry but I can get away with a legendary weapon with intellect, haste, lifesteal and poise.. still does the job!! But at 95 it’s a no no no!!!! No I can’t get into it!!! but armor is only good for tanks/raid builds to add defense but primarily when crafting gear it’s all about legendary and adding a vitality support rune that does the job.., ok I’ll stop cos i would have to do a sirbabbo’s guide to how to neglect the crafting up to 91 and then be a perfectionist at 95.. be repeated content too since kave has everything laid out and I’m sure my sloppy post to get away with it would be a cringe hahahaha...
I could get into this when the crafting and then gnoging is basically a fools errand. But the picture!!!!!! Please go and shoooo
 

Attachments

Tenzor

Legendary Hero
Characters
Dezgrim, Tenzor
Platform
Steam
Yeah this picture fooled me at start as gnog works, but in time I am found that color never be better then one of base item. At least colors a bit helpful for fast clear trash-gear while leveling unlike "power rating" that just clearly trash-info. I am very glad that stat-numbers are returned to us.
 

Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
Power rating is useful for determining which item is more powerful (has more stat points), but it doesn’t (and was nearer meant to) tell if an item is better (has more stat points of the most desirable stats). It also doesn’t include a number of things in the formula that it could or arguably should (like rune variants, stats added using reinforcement runes).
 

sirbabbo

Warrior
Platform
iOS
Power rating is useful for determining which item is more powerful (has more stat points), but it doesn’t (and was nearer meant to) tell if an item is better (has more stat points of the most desirable stats). It also doesn’t include a number of things in the formula that it could or arguably should (like rune variants, stats added using reinforcement runes).
It cringes me when people say well this power rating is better then the one you want me to convert...I would like the power rating to go it really is a false sense of security.
 

Math Fish

Squirrel
Royal Guardian
Characters
Math Fish (Marksman), Shama Fisha (Water), Accursed Angelfish (Shadow), Logical Loach (Fire)
Platform
PC, Steam
It cringes me when people say well this power rating is better then the one you want me to convert...I would like the power rating to go it really is a false sense of security.
This is something that really emphasizes a point I want to make with stats later. There are 3 factors that together point out some fundamental flaws with Power Rating:
  1. Copies of the same gear piece (even with the same Power Rating) can have different stat types.
  2. Some stat types are more favorable than others (for various reasons).
  3. Power Rating does not account for stat variation, runes, or preps. That means copies of the same gear piece can have varying stat values, runes, and preps in addition to the varying stat types from point 1.
The first two factors highlight an imbalance of stats. This imbalance could (in theory) just be an imbalance for your particular character or build, which would be easily resolved by grouping stats into types and having separate power ratings for each. That said, it may also introduce problems on its own, like getting rid of the singular number that can give a *rough* idea what is a good piece of gear (now it is 3 or more numbers). The imbalance (imo) is more a problem of game design than the stats themselves (which *do* have some balance issues). Combat is mostly a "my numbers vs your numbers" kind of thing where we have WAYYYYYY too much crowd control and healing. The imbalance in cc and healing is so bad that the only real "challenge" requires having enemies that are immune to cc and/or nearly 1-shot entire parties. The amount of buffing that is required on enemies to overcome the broken OP power of our characters is just plain stupid.

The last factor highlights a problem with trying to use a singular value to break down the full complexity of the stat system. Even if the number gave precisely how powerful the piece of gear is ... you still don't know how diminishing returns is going to affect it or exactly how it will affect your character's overall power: Am I getting 10% more power? 20%? nothing noticeable? It is like trying to take a complex multi-dimensional object and describe it using only a single point on a number line: It ain't happenin' bro!

*makes note to self to write down and refine those factors for future use ... and find a way to condense it all* lol
 

Tenzor

Legendary Hero
Characters
Dezgrim, Tenzor
Platform
Steam
Power rating is useful for determining which item is more powerful (has more stat points), but it doesn’t (and was nearer meant to) tell if an item is better (has more stat points of the most desirable stats). It also doesn’t include a number of things in the formula that it could or arguably should (like rune variants, stats added using reinforcement runes).
Power Rating was some kind of replacement of numeric system and was conceived as something to ease selection of items. But in real, that was some kind like you give a two bananas to the monkey and it must choose better by size...That was so unuseful, becuse we have alot of trash-stats so that kind of "Item-level" or "gear-score" dosnt work here properly. Numeric-system cover everything that we need and I am glad that we returned to it and no more sense in that Power Rating.
Math Fish said:
you still don't know how diminishing returns is going to affect it or exactly how it will affect your character's overall power:
Is it implemented here as system like "for every next percent you need more stat points" or you mean average stat-diminishing when you put something in same stat and better to use diversification of stats?
 

Xloui

Reader
Characters
Aloui Bloui Cloui DeLoui
Platform
iOS, PC
Oook.
Whenever this type of discussion/dissertation/dissection gets to approximately this point, I get lost in the game-stats’ equivalent to L-space (discworld).
For me one (ONE) number is more than enough, as I cannot spend my entire time in game(s).
So I wish from my heart that this time something understandable will come out of the critique.
If only a clear tutorial (not a doctorate) somewhere in game/wiki/forums.
Please
Thank you
❤
 

Tenzor

Legendary Hero
Characters
Dezgrim, Tenzor
Platform
Steam
Oook.
Whenever this type of discussion/dissertation/dissection gets to approximately this point, I get lost in the game-stats’ equivalent to L-space (discworld).
For me one (ONE) number is more than enough, as I cannot spend my entire time in game(s).
So I wish from my heart that this time something understandable will come out of the critique.
If only a clear tutorial (not a doctorate) somewhere in game/wiki/forums.
Please
Thank you
❤
Some things are not complicated how can it seem at first glance. That problem is easy to solve by writing some guides but need some experienced peoples who want to do that. Or you can close eyes on that and play like you played before. Maybe some things do not need to bother if you did not want.
 

Lalocat

Hunter
Characters
Lalocat
Platform
Android, PC
Basically, getting ready for combat is far more complex than combat itself.
Absolute fact. For example, for raids, if I have my character set up - geared up and gnogged out - I can just burn right through them... but if I'm NOT set up, it takes an enormous effort to get to that point.
 

Giruv

Merchant
Royal Guardian
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
Juggernaut > Voidstrike
Juggernaut does up to 23.1% of your current health (which is generally close to max) in damage while Voidstrike does up to 40% of a single target ability's damage (and is subject to a time delay between when you get the buff and when you actually apply it). My health full buffed is roughly 260k and my best ability does about 24k base damage. I will be generous and put myself in a raid with +250% Ability Power (350% Ability Power total - which STRONGLY favors Voidstrike) and assume I can always use my best ability (even though it has a 40 second base cooldown and I use it to apply an armor debuff every chance I get). The expected bonus damage from Voidstrike is about 29k damage (without a crit) or 87k (with a crit). The expected bonus damage from a Juggernaut proc is around 60k at full health. So that is double the standard hits and roughly 2/3 the crit damage. Overall Juggernaut does more damage even in a situation heavily rigged against it.
I think this comparison isn't correct, because you forgot to compare the uptime of the 2 stats. Tho both have 5% chance, every tick of damage you do can give you void strike charge. This mean you can cheat Voidstrike more by using AoE attack, DoT tick, Damage return, etc which make for a lot of class/sub class voidstrike is way better than Juggernaut. Some class also have low cooldown, single target spell that do above 50k damage(after ability power bonus), and void damage ignore resistance. So not only voidstrike can have way higher uptime, but it can have comparable damage as well for class like Shadow Priest and Fire Wiz.

So I actually think Voidstrike Vs Juggernaut is actually at a good balance and is how other stats should compare to each other. With the way it can better depending on the built.
 
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Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
I think this comparison isn't correct, because you forgot to compare the uptime of the 2 stats. Tho both have 5% chance, every tick of damage you do can give you void strike charge.
The difference between these two isn’t dominated by the proc rate (tho yes, you get higher proc rate with void when you do more dmg ticks). A lot of the relative value is wrapped up in “my health pool’s size” vs “which feats are consuming voidstrike”. In some builds, higher dmg juggy procs (with a lower proc rate) can still be superior in dps over time compared to a build that affords a significantly higher proc rate (but hits for weaker dmg).

The resistance-penetrating ability of voidstrike alone is too weak to tip the balance in favor of VS. If people understood just how little debuffing a mob’s resistance affected the damage dealt to a mob, they’d start seeing the armor/magic resist debuffs (and VS’s penetrating ability) for what they are… fluff.
 
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Roak

Squirrel
Platform
PC
Expertise > Savagery + Brutality
I dont really agree with that. With 4 offensive skills, i dont need that much expertise to always have one ready to use.

I also like Will and Clarity. When the important stats are high enough, i find it better to have more Will/Clarity than add more points in something that wont give me much because of diminushing returns.

Glory > Berserk, Flux, and Poise
I prefer Berserk and Poise over Glory because , like you say, Glory tends to run out in long elder battle. Berserk and Poise are more consistent and i get a nice boost to berserk from my fury talent tree.

I agree that Shielding isnt great, but at least it now comes back up in raids..... but i'd rather have anything else than it,tbh :p
 

Klaeklae

Bog Frog
Platform
Android
Last edited
First and foremost, a disclaimer: This is not meant to distract the developers from the QoL update. For the love of God, keep that sort of negative thought out of here! I am sick and tired of, whenever I bring up something about combat, certain individuals insist on derailing the discussion with that sort of negativity that has nothing to do with the intent of my posts in the first place. It just so happens that combat is the next thing on the list of critiques I'm doing. Nothing more; nothing less.

I've been looking over combat for a long time now (well over a year) and I still find myself struggling to fully articulate the issues I have with the current system. In the hopes of getting some help with this struggle, I m creating this thread for the explicit purpose of laying out what we feel about stats as it relates to the combat system. I feel that some guidelines would be helpful here. Keep in mind that, as this isn't fully fleshed out in my mind, the guidelines are subject to change. So allow me to lay some of those guidelines out, in no particular order.

Subject to change: Things that are NOT meant to be discussed in this thread:
  • Class Abilities - You may bring up how stats affect an ability, but this is not the thread for discussing overpowered or underpowered abilities. This thread is about stats.
  • Gear - Believe it or not, this has very little to do with gear. I am looking to analyze the stats independently of the gear system initially. I will get there, but not yet. :)
  • Stuff unrelated to stats - I feel this one is a given. :p
Subject to change: Things that are meant to be discussed in this thread:
  • Does x stat belong in the game?
  • Is it practical to use x stat?
  • Are certain stats overpowered? underpowered? simply broken? useless? annoying as all heck?
  • What changes could be made to the system (stats, specifically) to make it easier to understand? more practical? more balanced? less frustrating?


With that done, let me summarize some of what I have in mind already in my analysis of stats:
  • Stats break down combat into a "Sword and Sorcerer" style, except that everyone is a sorcerer. The short version of this is that pretty much every build in the game is the same except the tank is a bit "tankier". The long version will be laid out in another thread in the future.
  • For one reason or another the following stats will not be found that much on a high-end combat build (upwards of 13 out of 23 total stats):
    • Armor/Physical Protection (only as much as is needed to survive most of the time)
    • Magic Resist/Magic Protection (only as much as is needed to survive most of the time)
    • Vitality/Health (only as much as is needed to take a hit or two)
    • Vigor/Health Regen (nullified by all the other healing options)
    • Intellect/Mana (nullified by mana potions)
    • Will/Mana Regen (nullified by mana potions)
    • Clarity/Mana Efficiency (nullified by mana potions)
    • Berserk (only if you are taking damage)
    • Blasting (only if you are taking damage, and even then only on Shamans with erosion)
    • Haste (some do; some don't)
    • Lifesteal (while good ... nullified by all the other healing options)
    • Magic Find (many have a separate set of gear for finding better gear, but their main set will have 0 of this stat)
    • Shielding (the requirement of being out of combat for 6 seconds makes this worthless in most encounters; fairly decent for leveling though)
  • There are 12 purely offensive stats, 6 purely defensive stats, 3 mana stats, and 1 offensive/defensive hybrid (Glory). I'm not entirely sure what to make of this yet, but I will keep thinking about it. lol
  • Some stats are just better than others. Here are some examples:
    • Glory > Berserk, Flux, and Poise
      Glory gives as much as or more Ability Power AND augments your Armor and Magic Resist. All you have to do is kill something every couple of minutes. It's only downside is that it tends to run out in long elder battles.
      Onslaught is debatable. In solo fights you can use Onslaught to do massive first hit damage, which is great on a bounty run (and will do MUCH more damage if you have high AP). In raids your Ability Power is much higher, which lets you hit with MASSIVE damage when you start the fight, but the elders will be a pain once you get passed that 80% threshhold. At an elder, I would say Glory wins out, but Onslaught is better against the trash mobs if you do enough damage.
    • Expertise > Savagery + Brutality
      This one is a bit debatable. The raw damage is up to 100% extra from Expertise versus roughly 60-75% extra from Savagery and Brutality combined. The downside of Expertise is a 100% increase in mana usage. If you are willing to drink potions like a sponge, then Expertise is the literal god of offensive stats. Nothing else comes even remotely close.
    • Most offensive stats > Haste
      I haven't done the math for ALL of them, but Haste is pretty crap. At best you get a 30% increase to auto attack damage and a fraction of a second less cast time per spell. Since auto attacks are weaker than most abilities ... you should easily be able to tell what the problem is.
    • Juggernaut > Voidstrike
      Juggernaut does up to 23.1% of your current health (which is generally close to max) in damage while Voidstrike does up to 40% of a single target ability's damage (and is subject to a time delay between when you get the buff and when you actually apply it). My health full buffed is roughly 260k and my best ability does about 24k base damage. I will be generous and put myself in a raid with +250% Ability Power (350% Ability Power total - which STRONGLY favors Voidstrike) and assume I can always use my best ability (even though it has a 40 second base cooldown and I use it to apply an armor debuff every chance I get). The expected bonus damage from Voidstrike is about 29k damage (without a crit) or 87k (with a crit). The expected bonus damage from a Juggernaut proc is around 60k at full health. So that is double the standard hits and roughly 2/3 the crit damage. Overall Juggernaut does more damage even in a situation heavily rigged against it.
  • I feel like the system in place is a beta version of a beautifully complex system. Unfortunately it very likely needs to be broken down a bit ... a lot.
    • Some stats (like Magic Find) can be made into something else that isn't a stat.
    • Some stats (like Health and Health Regen) can be merged together.
    • Some stats (like Juggernaut and Voidstrike, or Berserk, Flux, Glory, and Poise) can be a forced choice for the player. Pick one and level that up instead of having all of the above.
    • Intellect, Will, and Clarity are really starting to feel like they don't belong in the game. The only thing keeping them here is the market for Mana Potions. Sorry to be so blunt but I feel that is the truth.


I understand this is a lot to take in and a lot to talk about. Don't try to pick all of it at once. I am perfectly fine if you want to pick a single piece of this discussion (even if I haven't brought it up yet) and focus on that for your post. Any and all ideas are welcome as I'm looking for ways to articulate something that has been lingering in my mind for a long time.
I agree with the premise that most everyone generally builds the same way, with the variables being how much is reserved for defensive stats. But I think that's less a result of bad stat design and more a result of bad encounter / class design.

The encounters themselves are not challenging enough to require a player to build anything but a minimalistic defensive build, instead allowing for a more max dps focus. And when we do have encounters that require greater levels of defense (and teamwork), the general population cries foul over how impossible and unfair the encounter is... and how it's darn near impossible without a "good" tank ("good tank" being defined as a tank foregoing the dps meta to some degree).

But this game does cater to a crowd that prefers a more "laid back" approach to mmos... so perhaps the existing issues surrounding stats are completely driven by the player base - they want an easier game with less stress, which means easy encounters and stacking damage stats to your heart's content.

Maybe it would help to think of damage stats like this:

1) cool down
2) damage (crit chance and crit damage)
3) situational damage (juggernaut, void, blasting, etc)
4) weak hybrid of the first 2 above (haste)
5) ability power
5) situational ability power (berserk (ability power when you take damage), poise (ability power when full health), Flux (ability power for using abilities), onslaught (ability power for early in fight), glory (ability power for killing things).

I don't think they are out of line with each other, and it would only be natural for some of those to be stronger than others, and also for some to be stronger at certain times and not as strong at others.

Anyway, that just brings me back to the environment and encounters in general... the game isn't making defense vs mana regen vs offensive a hard, meaningful choice with appropriate trade-offs. Unless that changes somehow, or there is a major class revamp of some kind, we will exist in a dps meta, and the current offensive stat selections cover most of the areas of opportunity.

-klaeklae
 

Zaphyra

Master Villager
Characters
Retired
Platform
Android, PC
I honestly enjoy the "laid back" approach to combat in this game. Even with full Legendary gear and a strong team, I still die sometimes in Raids. 😬

I've also played other MMOs, where the controls were so complex, that they were too much for me to master. 😳

I like V&H's simple combat controls and prefer my challenges to come, in the form of more complex Boss mechanics and puzzles. 🙂
 
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