Ildranach

Squirrel
Platform
Android, PC
In games, you only need to tank and heal enough to stay alive, anything else should be invested into damage. Its just like engineering, you need to design something that works but without wasting your resources,
Thanks for stating so succinctly what I was meandering around for posts on posts. Optimizing is fun!
Optimizing is even more fun when the relative power of each stat is roughly similar, because then you can optimize for different playstyle and different classes instead of everyone going the same build. You'd create more local maximums for certain classes which need different things than others, distinguish classes which do many little hits vs. those that nuke, classes that are rewarded for using more feats vs. classes that save up one big hit and dump all their resources on that big hit... Different core stats for different subclasses.
Thats something to think about too, do we need timers? Isn't taking too long a punishment in itself?
I'm of the opinion if a player is willing to spend two hours constantly dying and respawning but making a little progress every time, they should be allowed to make that slow, tedious progress, instead of an absolute pass/fail system.
Removing the timers would change the spam dependance and allow teams time to communicate, strategize, regen a little, shake out their wrists... ;) but this is veering off into the topic of raid suggestions which was opened elsewhere in the forum.

To get back on topic:
This should read as "To change mana pots into a worse version and keep the timers..." . Because that sentence has this hidden premise, still, i believe and hope they will do both, fix mana pots without a nerf and rework the mana regen stat.
Thanks for clarifying: that's exactly what I meant. I am eager and hopeful to see the final solution iteration.
 

Zlin

Priest
Characters
Knave
Platform
Android, PC
I did my first 30 as a holy priest never had mana issues(do to talents) now after rebirth I thought I would try shadow.. so mana heavy, I'm great at gardening now but it's no fun to do hero stuff. I'll definitely go back to holy.
 

Helos

Citizen
Characters
Helos, Tidal, Malevos
Platform
iOS
Make craftable mana potions that restore 30% of your mana in combat instantly, but with a reduced effect for lower level potions. Remove the mote requirement for lvl 95 potions. Add a reasonable cooldown for the mana potions. That way half manas, and full manas are still viable. If you are out of combat, make that same mana potion restore 3k mana over time as well. Re-work clarity and mana regen to be a worthwhile stat. Done.
 

Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
Last edited
Q: Why do players run out of mana, regardless of their gear, build or buff choices?
A: To rate-limit player activities beyond simple cooldowns. If it were possible to smash keys and never run out, there would be the point of having mana at all.

The problem is, content is scaled up to “provide more challenging fights” by using player numbers (in the case of EZ) or challenge levels (in the case of raids) to make them last longer (not harder, just take longer). Longer fights just mean ‘more people out of mana’. Don’t get me wrong... I want epic battles, but at some point the raid dmg multiplier just insta gigs everyone that’s not a tank. (Edit: and at some point, even the tank)

To my mind, some stats are useful always, for every class, for every build (I’m looking at you savagery/brutality/expertise). Some are mostly useless (mana regen and vigor). Instead of making mana regen useful and giving players a reason to spread points... let’s just ‘fix’ mana pots. Players will still need to grind for em which means they need to spend some time doing things they don’t want to (like gardening or scorn-hunting), just so that they can enjoy gameplay they do want. Right now, the players complain that they have to make too many mana potions... the answer isn’t ‘bigger potions’ alone, it’s taking a look at why they need so many and when.

Players often out level their gardens, let’s not penalize all players because they level faster than they gain levels gardening. Right now, new players instantly have an income source providing blueberries into a market with a solid demand... you’re suggesting making it where only characters a year or older can garden the components for high level potions. This is bad for the new player in an established economy.
 

CaraLox

Jack Of All Trades
Characters
Loxana/Mrs Doubtfire/Cara Lox/ShamRoc/Axalon/Mini me
Platform
iOS, PC
Event zones are suppose to be fun for everyone, therefore shouldn’t be mana holes.
 
Reactions: Shyama
  • Likex1

Zlin

Priest
Characters
Knave
Platform
Android, PC
currently people have garden alts which only grow blueberries for mana pots to support players raids
Brilliant! I'm totally going to make a garden alt after work!

P.S. Because I burned up most of my mana pots trying solo raid I was trying to figure out how to balance my infinite need for pie and gathering plants with rebuilding my mana pots. This is the perfect solution!

Edit: P.S
 

Sinjin

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS
Brilliant! I'm totally going to make a garden alt after work!
Make sure the alt collect the daily COG rewards. You can use those ‘extra’ soul bound supplies to gather tradable ones for your main.
 
Reactions: Zlin
  • Likex1

Primum Auxilium

Grand Priest
Characters
Errapel
Platform
Android, PC
No... Damon and beloved Sarah you put pots in shop and problem solved... Last raid in top of the Pyramid should be pvp... Simple
 

Piller Plate

Citizen
Platform
Android
Hi,
There are cooking recipes to make mana potions. These are Minor Mana Potion, Lesser Mana Potion, and so on. Most players are only making the level 3 version of these- the Minor Mana Potion that uses blueberries since it provides benefits nearly as good as the top level versions of this recipe line.

This is due to a design bug (our fault)- we had set the rank for the mana restore effect all to the same value, and so they all provide a 10% instant mana restore, regardless of level.

This is not good gameplay, as one player put it: "It's neither good to spam mana pots and spend half the time gardening to support it."

We want to change the Mana Potions so that higher ranks, provide greater benefits, and move away from a flat 10% boost. Instead, mana will be restored a fixed amount, based on the level of the Mana Potion:
  • Instant Mana Restore will restore mana 75 + 25 x rank (so that it will be 100 at rank 1 recipe, and 575 at rank 20)
  • Mana Restore over time will restore mana 175 + 75 x rank (so that it will be 250 at rank 1 recipe, and 1675 at rank 20)
  • We will (probably) also remove the damage shield this provides, since that's not really the point of this potion- and doesn't make sense to have a health protection mixed in with a mana boost.
We realize that this will disrupt the gameplay strategy of some players, so we wanted to let you know of this upcoming change. Most likely this change will come with the next major build in early February. With this warning, players will have a chance to use up the blueberry mana potions they have stockpiled.

We also realize this could leave players with not as much mana as before, and so we're thinking about solutions for this. If you have thoughts on a good way to rebalance mana, let us know. Some ideas:
  • Sell mana potions in the shop (this is a player suggestion- we removed these a while back from the Shop, but we could put them back in if players request it). Perhaps also find other ways for players to get mana potions (although, again, we don't want to make them so abundant that gameplay is only about spamming them)
  • Create a "Mana Well" - an artifact that has ten uses and spawns a special mana well that regens mana for players that stand near it. We would sell it in Shop or for ducats
  • Perhaps rebalance how mana regen and max mana a bit...
Please let us know your thoughts!
Thanks, Damon
I don't know how to be more direct, but it's totally Unfair.

We are exactly in the middle of the Second RAID Season, and we use to wast many mana potions on RAIDs.
My char is level 95, but i have level 49 Gardening, something about (i dont remember) 55 Cooking and fishing.

It's much more fair we wait for this changing after RAID Season, when we get our prizes, and after the Season, we start to upgrade cooking, fishing and gardening. When my char is level 95 in this habilities, i will be back to RAIDs, with Level 95 potions

If we do it in February we gonna loose all levels we have conquered in this RAID Season, and its very sad, because we've invested many time and resources on it.
 
Reactions: Monilune
  • Likex1

Damon Otter

Mad Otter Games
Developer
Hi,
We're going to delay making changes to mana potions for a while. We want to think about this more, and make more changes to go along with this. So... for now, the mana potion recipes in game will stay as they are. We will make a change at some point. I'd like to preserve some of what we have now- that new players can contribute and participate in the game economy by making useful mana potions, but at the same time fix some of the problems with the current system.

Best, Damon
 

Camadeen

Citizen
Characters
Camadeen, Gath, Genter
Platform
iOS
Perhaps mana potions can be “berry enhanced”. Either as an optional ingredient in current recipes, or as a new recipe, an additional garden-grown berry could be added to the mix to give it a boost. If the additional berry was as a blueberry, the blueberry trade would not be disrupted, but higher levels berries/melons would still be necessary.
 
Reactions: Renaiss and Zysen
  • Likex2

Zaphyra

Master Villager
Characters
Retired
Platform
Android, PC
Last edited
With 4 damage toons I agree. Fire wizards are way more expensive then the others. And as they often pick up agro..necessary to use multiple pots to survive. Also there is a serious timing issue so that u benefit from the constant regen....as slow and minuscule as it is. I dont think having toons dead in the water is a fix for spamming feats. Slower gameplay will lower the appeal of the game. As a person who uses all available feats per weapon simply not to be standing doing white damage waiting around....this is gonna reduce my attraction drastically.
As a Fire Wiz, I avoided using Mana Fire for a long time (even though it's our strongest feat, with a short cool-down)... because it costs over 500 mana per use and the 80% mana recovery, seems to take forever.

I also avoid gear with Will or Vitality... because the regen rate is so low, it seems useless.

And I avoided using the Elder skill Arcane Alacrity (which increases attack speed, reduces cool down and reduces mana costs by 90%, for 15 seconds)... because I hate to give up a damage feat, to make room for a buff... which is also why I don't use any other wiz buffs, like: Inner Fire, Ice Shield or Ice Floes.

At level 71, I decided to try Arcane Alacrity and Mana Fire... combined with Mind Spark's instant cool-down (from 10 Talent points in Cauterize) and Zephyr's 40% cool-down reduction... to see if Alacrity was worth using... and the short answer is YES (especially when Brutality is added and Mana Fire is used while Alacrity is active)... but you need to pay attention to your skill rotation, to get the best use of all your buffs... then we can spam our fire feats, for maximum damage... as long as we have mana pots or faster regen.

Which brings me to my point... I agree with Sundari, "slower gameplay will lower the appeal of the game"... and I do NOT want to see increased cool-downs for my feats or my mana pots. ☹

IMHO, we spend enough time on Elders, Raid bosses and EZ bosses... and I would HATE to have to stand around waiting for mana or feats to cool-down. I want the lowest cool-down I can get and I don't mind spamming mana pots, to fuel my feats.

I spent a lot of time/money building 3 low-level alts (see my sig)... to farm blueberries and do all my own crafting... just so I can craft my own pots, food and Legendary gear. This allows me to solo maps, up to 5 levels above my combat level... for faster leveling, during the rebirth process.

I also like that new players can farm blueberries and gather pond loach or sunback beetles... then sell their gathered mats or craft and sell mana pots, as a way to participate in our Trade community and earn the gold they need, to get started in the game.

However, I think we need to create a demand for all levels of mana pots, that's equal to the damand for all levels of Health pots... because we want to encourage players to level-up their gardening and/or increase participation in our Trade community.

Right now, farmed veggies are used to feed our ranch animals, cook health pots and fish dinners... but farmed berries/melons are only used to cook mana pots and mana rolls. The demand for berries/melons is already less, because we don't feed them to our animals... and it's even worse, because it's more cost-effective for players to spam low-level mana pots, than to use high-level ones.

So, how do we increase the demand for high level mana pots, without destroying the market for low level pots? 🤔

I'd like to offer the following suggestions:

  • 1 - Make both health and mana pots, restore a percentage of our health/mana, instead of a fixed amount... because base health/mana varies by class and build.
  • 2 - Increase the percentage of health/mana restored and increase the speed of restoration, as the potions level up... capping restoration at 30-40%, so we maintain the market for premium full/half health and mana pots.
  • 3 - Keep the shield on mana pots, add a shield to health pots and make them stackable... increasing the shield's strength/duration, as the potions level up... to create an added incentive, for players to use high-level health/mana pots.
  • 4 - Use level 4 health pots and level 3 mana pots, as a base ingredient for ALL other health/mana pots. Add them as an additional ingredient to the existing recipes... consider reducing some of the other ingredients, but not eliminating any ingredients... because we want to maintain/expand the market for gathered/farmed items, of all levels.
  • 5 - Consider making the lowest level drams/triads, the base ingredient for all the higher level drams/triads... to further expand the market for low level ingredients.

I think these suggestions would expand the market for low level ingredients and increase demand for high level health/mana pots. Which will encourage players to level up their gardening/gathering and/or participate in our Trade community.

Thanks for giving us a forum, to share our feedback and ideas.

~ Zap 👋😊
 

Jolon

Adventurer
Characters
Jolon, Jenalya
Platform
iOS
In looking at how reliant raiders of many (if not all) levels are on full and half potions/items, what if we could inject a way to utilize many skills and many individuals’ talents? On the simple side these potions added to the crown shop could be an income source for the Otters to add a bit of fuel to the developer fire. Instead or in addition, if these items were made craftable but demanding considerable resource investment, both in raw materials but also specialist items, might we also be able to stimulate aspects of the game economy?
  1. Crafting each item requires component materials made by four separate specializations. Armor masters make a special metal bottle to handle the volatile potion, weapon masters make a stopper so exactingly precise that no air can permeate, preparation masters use pitch, resin, powder, and distillates to create a reagent that the potion master then uses to bring all these pieces together with the numerous raw and refined materials they have created, perhaps even copious amounts of various current crafted mana and health pots. (Production masters as they currently exist could obviously assist in refining materials, however this specialization needs revitalization so is excluded from making exclusive ingredients until then).
  2. Considerable amounts of raw gathers, ranch, and garden materials are required to extract usable essences, comparable to real world rose oil, where 6000-8000 pounds of rose petals makes about 2 pounds of oil. It makes logical sense that an item that can restore half or all of your mana or health (or both?) would require the most refined of ingredients. To stimulate newer player involvement in the economy the items that are required can largely be items available at lower experience levels, perhaps adding the exotic plants currently used for xp and sold off to vendors as primary distillation components to enhance their usage.
  3. Separating half from full potions, I wonder if requiring higher level ingredients for full potions makes sense in opening economic opportunities for mid range to higher gardeners, ranchers, gatherers, and crafters. I would not put this at max level abilities despite the power of a full heal and mana potion simply because of the grind required to get there and encouraging people in the flagging leveling times starting at about 70.
  4. A resource factor of creation that is not well reflected in current crafting is a time component. To further limit volume output of these potions, a time “ingredient” could be introduced that requires X hours of letting it boil and bubble. This time component could also be applied to the component parts from each specialist. I’m sure anyone running Blight quests will just love this 😏.
 
Reactions: Zaphyra
  • Likex1

Rnnonami

Servant of Mallok
Platform
iOS
Hi,
There are cooking recipes to make mana potions. These are Minor Mana Potion, Lesser Mana Potion, and so on. Most players are only making the level 3 version of these- the Minor Mana Potion that uses blueberries since it provides benefits nearly as good as the top level versions of this recipe line.

This is due to a design bug (our fault)- we had set the rank for the mana restore effect all to the same value, and so they all provide a 10% instant mana restore, regardless of level.

This is not good gameplay, as one player put it: "It's neither good to spam mana pots and spend half the time gardening to support it."

We want to change the Mana Potions so that higher ranks, provide greater benefits, and move away from a flat 10% boost. Instead, mana will be restored a fixed amount, based on the level of the Mana Potion:
  • Instant Mana Restore will restore mana 75 + 25 x rank (so that it will be 100 at rank 1 recipe, and 575 at rank 20)
  • Mana Restore over time will restore mana 175 + 75 x rank (so that it will be 250 at rank 1 recipe, and 1675 at rank 20)
  • We will (probably) also remove the damage shield this provides, since that's not really the point of this potion- and doesn't make sense to have a health protection mixed in with a mana boost.
We realize that this will disrupt the gameplay strategy of some players, so we wanted to let you know of this upcoming change. Most likely this change will come with the next major build in early February. With this warning, players will have a chance to use up the blueberry mana potions they have stockpiled.

We also realize this could leave players with not as much mana as before, and so we're thinking about solutions for this. If you have thoughts on a good way to rebalance mana, let us know. Some ideas:
  • Sell mana potions in the shop (this is a player suggestion- we removed these a while back from the Shop, but we could put them back in if players request it). Perhaps also find other ways for players to get mana potions (although, again, we don't want to make them so abundant that gameplay is only about spamming them)
  • Create a "Mana Well" - an artifact that has ten uses and spawns a special mana well that regens mana for players that stand near it. We would sell it in Shop or for ducats
  • Perhaps rebalance how mana regen and max mana a bit...
Please let us know your thoughts!
Thanks, Damon
Mana food? Or mana drops?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top