Lyrra

Huntress
Characters
Lyrra, Lythe, Livelie, Chicken Little, xFURIx
Platform
iOS, Android
@Damon Otter you didn't use the full statement from the player though. The full quote is "It's neither good to spam mana pots and spend half the time gardening to support it nor spending 100 mana pots to support the battles." And in the difference lies the rub. The battles force use of too much mana, that needs to be fixed either before or in conjunction with any proposed change to mana potions. Either "activities" (spells, feats, runes, etcetera) cost too much to activate even at a high level, or players do not have enough of a mana pool, or mana takes too long to regen.
I totally agree
 
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Littlenymph

Squirrel
Characters
Layla Littlenymph
Platform
PC, Steam
I sometimes wonder if members actually take the time to read through an entire post or if they just skim the highlights and fill in the gaps with what they imagine the author to be saying. Here are a couple of snippets from the closing comments in the OP to illustrate what I'm saying. I'll keep them brief to avoid spiking anyone's TLDR anxiety syndrome
We also realize this could leave players with not as much mana as before, and so we're thinking about solutions for this. If you have thoughts on a good way to rebalance mana, let us know.

Please let us know your thoughts!
Thanks, Damon
The reason I chose these particular snippets from the closing remarks to highlight is that the vast majority of responses to this thread chose to ignore them. It is as if they were not even written. Most of the criticisms I'm reading here treat the OP as if it is a fully developed plan, etched in stone, placed for your consumption and compliance. It is anything but that. Since there seems to be a great deal of confusion as to what the developer said, perhaps a brief synopsis would be helpful

The developer states that a flaw has been discovered within the combat system and expresses the need to correct this flaw.
The developer outlines certain actions they feel necessary as the first steps in addressing this flaw and prepares the community for these changes.
The developer concedes the fact that additional actions will need to be taken in order to balance combat when these first steps are implemented and requests input from the community. They then provide examples of the type of input they anticipate receiving.
The developer closes their post by repeating the request for community input and invites your comments, and suggestions.

Clearly, this is not a fully formulated plan of action. It is a declaration of intent to formulate a plan and a solicitation for community input in helping to achieve that goal. While criticism can often be a viable form of input, it loses all value when it is not accompanied by viable suggestions. I have played a rather large variety of MMO games and have never run across a group of developers that operated with this much transparency, actively soliciting input from its customer base. You have a rare chance to help shape a product and you would be hard-pressed to find another producer willing to extend such an opportunity. Don't waste it with a litany of complaints based on speculation and assumptions.
 
Characters
BashaDrake, Elmeti, Knytro
Platform
Android
We realize that this will disrupt the gameplay strategy of some players, so we wanted to let you know of this upcoming change. Most likely this change will come with the next major build in early February. With this warning, players will have a chance to use up the blueberry mana potions they have stockpiled.

As I read it, this change is planned without having any mitigating system in place, or even being tested.
I agree that the mana system as it currently exists needs work, but to completely break it and then see what can be done afterwards is not a wise plan. Several people have already stated quite clearly that Mana Regen itself needs work. There is little more we as players can do at the moment other than to explain how this change as it is stated will affect us.
 

SprigOfHalcyon

Master Farmer
Royal Guardian
Platform
Android, PC
As stated, this change would be disastrous for most players.
At rank 20, your new potions would only restore a total of 2250 mana compared to 3k now. During Raids and 95 Elders, many players burn through well over 100 potions. With the new potions, player damage would drop drastically which would require a complete reworking of enemy damage and health to even come close to where we are currently.
Mana Regen is already difficult enough, especially during combat. I encourage you to consider boosting base mana regen, perhaps tenfold. Mana potions right now are NOT optional, but essential for Raids and 95 Elders.
Currently, it only restores 1000 (or 1500 if the blighted version) "over time" when in combat (and in raids, always in combat, in elders, mostly in combat). Plus then the 10% value, which if you have a 4k mana pool would be less than 400. So, that's something like 1400 now for the blueberry pots or 1900 for the blighted mana pots. In reality, it's more like 300-500 per blueberry pot right now if you are really chugging them (like in Laurent fight for me). So, the OP suggested amount for the blueberry pots will not be so terrible either.

The values in the OP would be a large increase in the amount of mana I get from mana potions (but the potions would be more expensive to craft). That sounds good to me!
 
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Ildranach

Squirrel
Platform
Android, PC
I sometimes wonder if members actually take the time to read through an entire post or if they just skim the highlights and fill in the gaps with what they imagine the author to be saying. Here are a couple of snippets from the closing comments in the OP to illustrate what I'm saying. I'll keep them brief to avoid spiking anyone's TLDR anxiety syndrome

The reason I chose these particular snippets from the closing remarks to highlight is that the vast majority of responses to this thread chose to ignore them. It is as if they were not even written. Most of the criticisms I'm reading here treat the OP as if it is a fully developed plan, etched in stone, placed for your consumption and compliance. It is anything but that. Since there seems to be a great deal of confusion as to what the developer said, perhaps a brief synopsis would be helpful

The developer states that a flaw has been discovered within the combat system and expresses the need to correct this flaw.
The developer outlines certain actions they feel necessary as the first steps in addressing this flaw and prepares the community for these changes.
The developer concedes the fact that additional actions will need to be taken in order to balance combat when these first steps are implemented and requests input from the community. They then provide examples of the type of input they anticipate receiving.
The developer closes their post by repeating the request for community input and invites your comments, and suggestions.

Clearly, this is not a fully formulated plan of action. It is a declaration of intent to formulate a plan and a solicitation for community input in helping to achieve that goal. While criticism can often be a viable form of input, it loses all value when it is not accompanied by viable suggestions. I have played a rather large variety of MMO games and have never run across a group of developers that operated with this much transparency, actively soliciting input from its customer base. You have a rare chance to help shape a product and you would be hard-pressed to find another producer willing to extend such an opportunity. Don't waste it with a litany of complaints based on speculation and assumptions.
Pardon my frustration with this issue then as multiple previous threads have been opened elsewhere that states exactly what is wrong with mana stats, how the players propose to fix things, and even some feedback from other players on such suggestions. I don't believe these threads have received replies from the devs, so please see below links for your convenience in case they were buried under other threads and un-read:
Math Fish on Mana Stats
KAVE's suggestions for mana in general and for Raids
Majenta: "The stats linked to mana need to be improved to make them function well"
Dawnfire: "...I don't think that a single potion is meant to be superior to 3 stats and talents."

There are likely others as well; please feel free to chime in with quotes and links if I've missed some.
 

Grumpy

Master Farmer
Characters
Oldman Oin, Bedevere, Nator
Platform
Steam
Looks like the trinket runes Complete Control and Insight will become more useful though Insight could move to a percentage rather than 400 flat.
As for crafted mana pots - Percentage return multiplied by level of potion / combat level. Maybe a lower cost to craft since it requires gardening and cooking or is this what potion masters are for.
 

SpikedJuice

Jack Of All Trades
Platform
iOS, PC
Last edited
I thought Raids (design, balance, rewards) were the priority as of livestream Dec 2020? Please advise if mana is the #1 concern of the VH community - if so, I’ll go back to living under my rock. Why invest time and effort on a complex issue that isn’t really broken, and even worse trigger a cascade of other problems that will make customers unhappy?
 

Salty Sal

Servant of Mallok
Platform
Android, PC
How about we fix the lag issues or the raid issues before we change what's going on with Mana. I would gladly plant blueberries to get rid of the lag. On top of that, please have a valuable solution rather than this mediocre fix. Why make it worse instead of making it better. The whole community have made suggestions on making it better, yet instead you seem to ignore it. Leave Mana pots the way it is, add a vendor for full pots and call it a day. This issue can remain on the back burner until we get other issues solved.
 

Casti

Grand Priestess
Characters
Aria Aeris
Platform
Android, PC
Please let us know your thoughts!
Alright, here goes mine. :)
You can read a quick solution at the top of this post and my thoughts on it further below.



1. Overview:
1.1 Problems and Solutions


Problem: We are required to use a massive number of mana pots for combat.
Solution: Significantly increase the mana return of those potions but give them a 30 second cooldown
Problem: Its possible, and done by almost every player, to ignore 19 of the 20 available mana pots and only drink the lvl 3 ones.
Solution: Make the higher level pots provide more mana.


1.2 Final Solution Overview (More mana/sec but has a cooldown)

Level 3 (Rank 1) Potion
PotionR1.png


Level 93 (Rank 19) Potion
PotionR19.png


(Rank X) Potion
PotionRX.png



2. Deeper Analysis:
2.1 General Information on Mana


  • Class Differences
    • Different classes have different maximum mana values
    • Different classes have different average mana costs per skill rotation
  • Gardening
    • Mana potions require gardening (the villager skill that takes the longest to level in the game)
    • Its impossible to keep your gardening level the same or higher than your combat level, unless you stop questing and bounty killing for a few weeks/ few months every dozen level ups
  • Market
    • 100 lvl 3 mana pots (On US3) have a usual sale price of 30 gold.
    • 100 lvl 95 mana pots were probably never made in the game, since they cost too much at the moment. To make 100 of those it requires:
      • 425 gold (Can go to 140 gold with capped cost reduction using premium buff from crowns)
      • Regular cooking materials
      • 100 motes (an hour if you are lucky, more if not)
      • 100 lvl 90 harvests (worth at least 80 gold)
      • Minimum total of 220 gold and an hour of running around.
  • Mana related stats on characters
    • Clarity (Mana cost reduction) is in a good spot currently, its useful to have it at 2 stars.
    • Intellect (Increased maximum mana) is also at a good spot, its useful to have this one at 2 stars too.
    • Will (Mana Regen) is in a terrible spot and is unfortunately useless, a well geared character won't have this stat in any of their gear pieces and keep it at 0 stars.


2.2 Thoughts on Mana Pots

Using potions during combat is definitely a way to engage players a bit more, and requires a step of preparation before you go hunting, even if simple. But currently we need to use dozens or even a hundred during half an hour of intense gameplay, which is excessive.​
The mana potions we have at our disposal have no cooldown and restore a pitiful percentage of your mana pool, and that's why they are spammy. In comparison, the mana potions i provided images to on the preview above, restore a good percentage of your mana pool but have a 30 seconds cooldown, which means you can't spam them, they become a tactical resource.
  • Instant Mana Restore will restore mana 75 + 25 x rank (so that it will be 100 at rank 1 recipe, and 575 at rank 20)
  • Mana Restore over time will restore mana 175 + 75 x rank (so that it will be 250 at rank 1 recipe, and 1675 at rank 20)
  • We will (probably) also remove the damage shield this provides, since that's not really the point of this potion- and doesn't make sense to have a health protection mixed in with a mana boost.
This proposal on the original post solves one of the two problems we have, but creates a third. It solves the problem of all potions being the same regardless of level, but it doesn't solve the problem of them being spammy. It doesn't tackle the cooldown problem, and for potions to have a big cooldown they need to provide a bigger amount of mana/sec than they do currently. And thats the third problem it creates, its makes it so you require a bigger number of mana pots by significantly nerfing their mana/sec value.​

2.3 Thoughts on Will (Mana Regen Stat)

Will at the moment is a terrible stat, its worthless to players, but that can be solved. Why is it worthless? As a few players have stated, it takes over a dozen minutes to restore your mana back to 100%, and that was on a warrior. On a priest, which has a bigger pool, it will take even longer.​
My proposed solution is to have it become a percentage, for example: "You restore 0.5% of mana/second", which would take 200 seconds to restore you to 100% in this case. A good cap for this value would be 1% Mana/sec, which would means you take 100 seconds to fill your mana pool, almost 2 minutes but still pretty good. That is of course taking into consideration that reaching the cap on a stat like Will would severely hurt your other damage related stats, so its a trade off. Even with this value i proposed, very few players would reach 3-4 stars in this stat, but 2 stats would become a good standard.​
Another problem is the in-combat and out of combat super nerfs that are currently applied, i hope they are either abolished completely or that the out of combat percentage can rise above the 1% per second i proposed. Idling in front of enemies waiting for your mana to regen is a good time to think about what other things you could be doing besides playing the game, its not engaging at all.​
 

Halleebell

Squirrel
Characters
Hallee/Freyra
Platform
iOS, PC
Alright, here goes mine. :)
You can read a quick solution at the top of this post and my thoughts on it further below.



1. Overview:
1.1 Problems and Solutions


Problem: We are required to use a massive number of mana pots for combat.
Solution: Significantly increase the mana return of those potions but give them a 30 second cooldown
Problem: Its possible, and done by almost every player, to ignore 19 of the 20 available mana pots and only drink the lvl 3 ones.
Solution: Make the higher level pots provide more mana.


1.2 Final Solution Overview (More mana/sec but has a cooldown)

Level 3 (Rank 1) Potion
View attachment 10561


Level 93 (Rank 19) Potion
View attachment 10562


(Rank X) Potion
View attachment 10563



2. Deeper Analysis:
2.1 General Information on Mana


  • Class Differences
    • Different classes have different maximum mana values
    • Different classes have different average mana costs per skill rotation
  • Gardening
    • Mana potions require gardening (the villager skill that takes the longest to level in the game)
    • Its impossible to keep your gardening level the same or higher than your combat level, unless you stop questing and bounty killing for a few weeks/ few months every dozen level ups
  • Market
    • 100 lvl 3 mana pots (On US3) have a usual sale price of 30 gold.
    • 100 lvl 95 mana pots were probably never made in the game, since they cost too much at the moment. To make 100 of those it requires:
      • 425 gold (Can go to 140 gold with capped cost reduction using premium buff from crowns)
      • Regular cooking materials
      • 100 motes (an hour if you are lucky, more if not)
      • 100 lvl 90 harvests (worth at least 80 gold)
      • Minimum total of 220 gold and an hour of running around.
  • Mana related stats on characters
    • Clarity (Mana cost reduction) is in a good spot currently, its useful to have it at 2 stars.
    • Intellect (Increased maximum mana) is also at a good spot, its useful to have this one at 2 stars too.
    • Will (Mana Regen) is in a terrible spot and is unfortunately useless, a well geared character won't have this stat in any of their gear pieces and keep it at 0 stars.


2.2 Thoughts on Mana Pots

Using potions during combat is definitely a way to engage players a bit more, and requires a step of preparation before you go hunting, even if simple. But currently we need to use dozens or even a hundred during half an hour of intense gameplay, which is excessive.​
The mana potions we have at our disposal have no cooldown and restore a pitiful percentage of your mana pool, and that's why they are spammy. In comparison, the mana potions i provided images to on the preview above, restore a good percentage of your mana pool but have a 30 seconds cooldown, which means you can't spam them, they become a tactical resource.


This proposal on the original post solves one of the two problems we have, but creates a third. It solves the problem of all potions being the same regardless of level, but it doesn't solve the problem of them being spammy. It doesn't tackle the cooldown problem, and for potions to have a big cooldown they need to provide a bigger amount of mana/sec than they do currently. And thats the third problem it creates, its makes it so you require a bigger number of mana pots by significantly nerfing their mana/sec value.​

2.3 Thoughts on Will (Mana Regen Stat)

Will at the moment is a terrible stat, its worthless to players, but that can be solved. Why is it worthless? As a few players have stated, it takes over a dozen minutes to restore your mana back to 100%, and that was on a warrior. On a priest, which has a bigger pool, it will take even longer.​
My proposed solution is to have it become a percentage, for example: "You restore 0.5% of mana/second", which would take 200 seconds to restore you to 100% in this case. A good cap for this value would be 1% Mana/sec, which would means you take 100 seconds to fill your mana pool, almost 2 minutes but still pretty good. That is of course taking into consideration that reaching the cap on a stat like Will would severely hurt your other damage related stats, so its a trade off. Even with this value i proposed, very few players would reach 3-4 stars in this stat, but 2 stats would become a good standard.​
Another problem is the in-combat and out of combat super nerfs that are currently applied, i hope they are either abolished completely or that the out of combat percentage can rise above the 1% per second i proposed. Idling in front of enemies waiting for your mana to regen is a good time to think about what other things you could be doing besides playing the game, its not engaging at all.​
Thoe I don’t like the thought of a cool down on mana pots. I really like this idea and would be for it. Of course I wouldn’t truly know until I used it in battle Aka raids/elders. But this not only seems very reasonable but also would hopefully solve the issues with mana all the way around.
 
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Gonzo

Citizen
Platform
Android, PC
Last edited
1. Addition of mana 'heart' drops, same as we have for HP. This has no/low impact towards the heavy-usage moments (raids, 95 elders)
2. Allow some classes to have a decent group-wide mana restore/regen skill.
2.1 Priests could have an active skill for mana restore (bulk). Keep in mind priests are already OP
2.2 Water shams could have either an active mana regen skill or a passive/side-effect of another skill.

PS Consider giving water sham the mana restore skill in order for it to be 'seen' better as a support class(vs priests)
 
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Ekimie

Hunter
Royal Guardian
Platform
Steam
There is also the mana restore trinket, it has a rather long cool down and only gives 400 mana back. Perhaps this one could be made actually worthwhile too. Right now the only slightly useful way to use it is when it can be refreshed with the murder (mm hunter) ultimate. And even then the mana over time it gives is nihil. I use it quite a lot, but like I said, I can refresh it regularly with murder. But that only works in solo play, in groups you cant time it because other people's blows and aoes take out the target just as murder gets into effective range
 

Ekimie

Hunter
Royal Guardian
Platform
Steam
btw lots of people say the restore out of combat boost is useless, but I like it, because it only requires me to stand still on a run for half a minute-ish and I am back full again. so I do like that, but I also do think the restore IN combat should be able to be valuable in itself
 

Lalocat

Adventurer
Characters
Lalocat Vla Laniss
Platform
Android, PC
  • Sell mana potions in the shop (this is a player suggestion- we removed these a while back from the Shop, but we could put them back in if players request it). Perhaps also find other ways for players to get mana potions (although, again, we don't want to make them so abundant that gameplay is only about spamming them)
No.

  • Create a "Mana Well" - an artifact that has ten uses and spawns a special mana well that regens mana for players that stand near it. We would sell it in Shop or for ducats
No.

  • Perhaps rebalance how mana regen and max mana a bit...
That would be a start.

Cash shop solutions should be for players who are too lazy to make a build and prefer to pay, not something that is mandatory for all because there is literally no other solution to the problem.
 

Lyrra

Huntress
Characters
Lyrra, Lythe, Livelie, Chicken Little, xFURIx
Platform
iOS, Android
I sometimes wonder if members actually take the time to read through an entire post or if they just skim the highlights and fill in the gaps with what they imagine the author to be saying. Here are a couple of snippets from the closing comments in the OP to illustrate what I'm saying. I'll keep them brief to avoid spiking anyone's TLDR anxiety syndrome

The reason I chose these particular snippets from the closing remarks to highlight is that the vast majority of responses to this thread chose to ignore them. It is as if they were not even written. Most of the criticisms I'm reading here treat the OP as if it is a fully developed plan, etched in stone, placed for your consumption and compliance. It is anything but that. Since there seems to be a great deal of confusion as to what the developer said, perhaps a brief synopsis would be helpful

The developer states that a flaw has been discovered within the combat system and expresses the need to correct this flaw.
The developer outlines certain actions they feel necessary as the first steps in addressing this flaw and prepares the community for these changes.
The developer concedes the fact that additional actions will need to be taken in order to balance combat when these first steps are implemented and requests input from the community. They then provide examples of the type of input they anticipate receiving.
The developer closes their post by repeating the request for community input and invites your comments, and suggestions.

Clearly, this is not a fully formulated plan of action. It is a declaration of intent to formulate a plan and a solicitation for community input in helping to achieve that goal. While criticism can often be a viable form of input, it loses all value when it is not accompanied by viable suggestions. I have played a rather large variety of MMO games and have never run across a group of developers that operated with this much transparency, actively soliciting input from its customer base. You have a rare chance to help shape a product and you would be hard-pressed to find another producer willing to extend such an opportunity. Don't waste it with a litany of complaints based on speculation and assumptions.
I read the entire post and I believe most everyone did... many problems with the current system are being highlighted by players and we have given several viable ideas on how to fix the problem. Your assumptions are not true at all. Yes, players are venting... the mana has been a frustration for a very long time... and now the devs are proposing a plan to take away our crutches without first providing a wheelchair as one player wrote in our guild channel. We don't need scolding or arrogance. We need to be heard.
 

Katniss Everdeen

Eldritch Huntress
Royal Guardian
Characters
Wendy & Song Merrydance
Platform
PC
I read the posts and may have missed it but, it would be a kindness on the part of the Devs to let us know ahead of time, what needs to be grown for what mana pots so we can start growing them. On the timed runs, sometime it's just easier, when health and manna are both low, to just let them kill you and use a rezzi to come back with full health and manna. ...Death as a strategy...
 
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Rubyn

Arch Wizard
Characters
Rubyn
Platform
Android, PC
I read the posts and may have missed it but, it would be a kindness on the part of the Devs to let us know ahead of time, what needs to be grown for what mana pots so we can start growing them. On the timed runs, sometime it's just easier, when health and manna are both low, to just let them kill you and use a rezzi to come back with full health and manna. ...Death as a strategy...
Rezzie? As shop item strategy?
 
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