IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
None of the classes were well balanced. Each class had specific strengths and weaknesses. The balance was in the team. Warriors were tanks who smashed everything and the enemy focused on blowing up the tank. Wizards were air support waiting to attack with big bombs flying over and clearing a massive area. Wizards would disintegrate with a single when spotted. Hunters were snipers. They played "hide and seek" and "hit and run" with rapid fireing weapons. Death was swift and usually not survivable for a group or single enemy. Priest were the saviors and protectors. Shadow traveled close to the tank dealing damage over time spraying mustard gas and agent orange slowing the enemy. Holy was MASH running around shielding from damage and healing the injured.

Now it seems the game has moved to attracting players who want do all damage and be invincible. I say give all the weapons, talents and traits to every class and the ability to change weapons anytime. No one would need any specific class. Everyone could do everything.. Then balance would make a difference. The only difference would be the clothes they wear.
YES!! THIS!!!
A balanced group, but it seems that group play, (like we had from the beginning) became a bad thing and players who were used to playing alone wanted it all. Thus the never ending quest for "Balance" and cries of "They are OP"!
 

Antavious

Warrior
Characters
Antavious, suoivatna
Platform
  1. iOS
The conclusion I reached was that wile removing dps from holy priests was easy, removing it from tanks was not and the devs basically tried and failed at attempting this. The reason for the fail was the threat/damage relationship. now ideas like scaling threat to defence have been suggested but there are a bunch of difficulties to consider:

.threat needs to be generated from damage or there won’t be any risk to damage players at all
.warrior as a class has to have access to high damage moves because of fury as a sub-class
.some lightning feats have to provide defence not offence and as such little or no threat compared to a full dps move.

so a mix of fury and lightning feats will always provide more threat than lightning alone this is a potential problem for removing damage.

the ideal scenario is that a fully dedicated lightning tank will provide top threat but one found lacking would be out threated by a strong fury warrior. I have always thought all lightning feats should provide more threat over time (numbers calculated based on feat cool-downs) than the highest threat fury move so a pure lightning warrior will out threat any hybird or fury one but so far the devs haven’t gone for this solution. Also the big threat boost ultimate’s & armour runes will need to be adjusted to not boost threat gained from fury feats. If they did this then lightning warrior hybrids will not be able to have high dps and top threat but they can have high defensive and high threat or damage. If this is balanced correctly and very carefully then its possible to achieve the balance.
 

justbequiet

Villager
Platform
  1. iOS
  2. PC
The conclusion I reached was that wile removing dps from holy priests was easy, removing it from tanks was not and the devs basically tried and failed at attempting this. The reason for the fail was the threat/damage relationship. now ideas like scaling threat to defence have been suggested but there are a bunch of difficulties to consider:

.threat needs to be generated from damage or there won’t be any risk to damage players at all
.warrior as a class has to have access to high damage moves because of fury as a sub-class
.some lightning feats have to provide defence not offence and as such little or no threat compared to a full dps move.

so a mix of fury and lightning feats will always provide more threat than lightning alone this is a potential problem for removing damage.

the ideal scenario is that a fully dedicated lightning tank will provide top threat but one found lacking would be out threated by a strong fury warrior. I have always thought all lightning feats should provide more threat over time (numbers calculated based on feat cool-downs) than the highest threat fury move so a pure lightning warrior will out threat any hybird or fury one but so far the devs haven’t gone for this solution. Also the big threat boost ultimate’s & armour runes will need to be adjusted to not boost threat gained from fury feats. If they did this then lightning warrior hybrids will not be able to have high dps and top threat but they can have high defensive and high threat or damage. If this is balanced correctly and very carefully then its possible to achieve the balance.
Cant you just increase the base threat amount for all lightning and or earth runes without touching damage?

All earth and lightning damage runes have a damage component (that already generates threat) and a threat component. For instance. Lightning bolt's damage description is "Launches a lightning bolt that deals X (+Y Lightning Power) physical damage and X (+Y Lightning Power) threat to your target. "

If you increase the threat output component of lightning/earth runes significantly (without touching the damage component at all), then you dont need to change the formula for threat generation from DPS while making lightning and earth runes more "threatening". That way, classes like lightning warriors dont have to resort to going hybrid in order to generate enough threat to be sticky with anything.
 
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Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
  1. PC
Cant you just increase the base threat amount for all lightning and or earth runes without touching damage?

All earth and lightning damage runes have a damage component (that already generates threat) and a threat component. For instance. Lightning bolt's damage description is "Launches a lightning bolt that deals X (+Y Lightning Power) physical damage and X (+Y Lightning Power) threat to your target. "

If you increase the threat output component of lightning/earth runes significantly (without touching the damage component at all), then you dont need to change the formula for threat generation from DPS while making lightning and earth runes more "threatening". That way, classes like lightning warriors dont have to resort to going hybrid in order to generate enough threat to be sticky with anything.
They have done that several times already.

There isn't really any problem with lightning's threat generation. The problem is dps classes who don't bother to limit their threat.

Devs can balance group content till the cows come home; unless players use the tools available to them, it won't make any difference.
 
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Antavious

Warrior
Characters
Antavious, suoivatna
Platform
  1. iOS
Last edited
as long as a feat like slash has more threat over time than a feat like rally, rally will always be rejected for slash and hence tanks will always be hybrids and will always have high damage. Right now and in the totality of the time I’ve spent playing the game 3 lightning feats (that’s just under half) are rejects as far as threat is concerned hence rubbish for a tank.

Granted they do other things like increase defence temporarily but a tank doesn’t need “temporary“ defensive boosts much either it needs permanence. There is also the hard truth that the game’s difficulty is rather soft. I’m not saying this is necessarily bad but it dose marginalise defensive builds to the point they feel redundant.

What this means is tanks always have the good intentions of maximising there threat but end up realising this means maximising there damage and hybridising fury so we end up mostly with soft high damage tanks. It’s my hope this balance can be shifted to more defence orientated tanks at some point and this will have a knock-on effect to improving content. But I’ve been hoping for this for a long time and I don’t see any progress.
 

Black_Cvlt

Arch Wizard
Characters
Danger Zone, Black Cvlt, Coup de Grace, High Voltage
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
The problem is dps classes who don't bother to limit their threat.
> The problem is dps classes who don't bother to limit their threat (i.e. dps).

There is certainly no contradiction right here.
 

Majenta

Villager
Forum Moderator
Platform
  1. PC
Last edited
> The problem is dps classes who don't bother to limit their threat (i.e. dps).

There is certainly no contradiction right here.
Yeah, it's not like every class has a class token to reduce threat.

Oh wait, yes they do. And nobody uses it.

(Caveat : When I say "nobody uses it," that is just for effect. Obviously I don't know how many players actually use that particular feat, but I am relatively sure it is few if any.)
 
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Xantia

Arch Wizard
Characters
Xantia
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Last edited
Yeah, it's not like every class has a class token to reduce threat.

Oh wait, yes they do. And nobody uses it.

(Caveat : When I say "nobody uses it," that is just for effect. Obviously I don't know how many players actually use that particular feat, but I am relatively sure it is few if any.)
The Fire Wiz feat that reduces threat, is on a Necklace. In order to use it, we must give up the instant cooldown of Mindspark. Which substantially reduces our damage. This might be OK during EZ content, but 95 Elders and Raids are timed. So we need to kill quickly, for the best Elder rewards and to finish raids before time runs out.

I wish one of our Talents unlocked an ultimate, that would reduce threat. 🙂


Thank you @Firebird for kindly pointing out my senior moment. 🙇‍♀️💕

Here's a screenshot of Fire Wiz Tokens:

Screenshot_20231008_070211_Villagers and Heroes MMO.jpg

While I would be losing some spell power, it's not as much as I thought. I'll start carrying an extra Token and use threat reduction, when/if needed. 🙂

I'm not sure WHY I thought it was the Necklace rune. 😅
 

Dawnfire

Lumineer
Royal Guardian
Characters
Athon Dawnfire
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Just dropping in to share my views/experiences with tanking (as a lightning / hybrid warrior).

1) There is no threat generation issue with any of the tank specs (including earth shaman). Sure a lvl 10 tank might lose aggro to a lvl 95 dps, but on the base of reasonable setups dps never steals aggro. If you see such happening that is either the game being laggy/glitchy or just the tank sleeping on their job. Tanks with higher damage will obviously generate more threat, and unless you completely ignore every single damage option on your gear (which is nigh impossible) even defense oriented tanks can hold their ground. The issue that some bring up is that defense focused tanks lose to damage focused tanks. Tank/threat racing in itself should not even be up for debate, it is super silly, as long as both kinds are capable holding the aggro I don't think there's any issue.

2) The game currently has zero content that requires you to be a completely die hard hardcore defense only setup as a tank. And as such offensive setups are prefered since they allow you to do content quicker (also things dying quicker -> you taking less damage). Not to mention solo content is also quite good on offensive tanks, in terms of speed. Finally a game where leveling/soloing as a tank, doesn't have to be a slogfest.

3) You can flip the switch around and make threat scale on defense to some extent, but what is the point? No content requires defense heavy setups, all it would mean that content becomes slower to do, as tanks sacrifice damage to be more durable. I rather they add content that would require you to spec more defense heavy than force you into it by an arbitrary change.

4) Still I could see adding some damage options to those tanks who prefer to be more tanky. Epic stats/talents/abilities that have some damage/threat scaling tied to your vitality/armor/magic resist. Juggernaut is one such, it hits the hardest for tanks, but there could be more options (like Thorns -> dealing damage to attackers based on your armor) or a new ability that improves your ability power based on your total armor/magic resist for a set time. I think you get the picture. Still offensive tanks should come out on top, but the gap doesn't need to be so big.

I think the tank meta atm is fairly alright, with multiple viable builds out there, wether it's hybrid, lightning, or earth setup, and if anything future changes should add more options to the fray, be it more offensive focused or defensive focused builds. As long as both can fulfill the role of a tank, and offensive tanks aren't superior to normal dps in terms of damage, we're still golden.
 
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YES!! THIS!!!
A balanced group, but it seems that group play, (like we had from the beginning) became a bad thing and players who were used to playing alone wanted it all. Thus the never ending quest for "Balance" and cries of "They are OP"!
Yes , A novel !! Fantasy story , not a gamer view !!

Most of people Cries are WIZ “omg, wiz aren’t OP , wiz deserved to be the best cannon above all class”
In game, wiz steal threat . Its “mod balance judge”
 

Antavious

Warrior
Characters
Antavious, suoivatna
Platform
  1. iOS
the real issue isn’t about keeping up with dps players, neither is it about which tanks have the best threat.
what it actually is about is a class that can do a lot of damage wile being practically immortal at the same time.
IMG_0766.pngIMG_0765.pngIMG_0764.pngIMG_0763.pngIMG_0781.pngIMG_0782.pngIMG_0011.pngIMG_0012.pngIMG_0013.png
Content can’t possibly be balanced wile one class renders it all trivial. The ideal scenario is warriors should be a tank or a dps and not get away with functioning as both. This can only be achieved by separating dps from defence but of course defence needs to remain relevant so this is where threat comes in as kinda a compromise so:-

fury: high damage, mid threat, low defence
lightning: low damage, high threat, high defence
hybird: mid damage, mid threat, mid defence

is what we want, what we currently have is:-

fury: high damage, mid threat, low defence
lightning: low damage, mid threat, high defence
hybird: mid damage, high threat, high defence
 

Dawnfire

Lumineer
Royal Guardian
Characters
Athon Dawnfire
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
Content can’t possibly be balanced wile one class renders it all trivial
If by trivial you mean painfully slowly soloing some bosses, then yes warriors can render it trivial (although it can be done by other classes too like priest and shaman, unsure about hunter and wizard though).


fury: high damage, mid threat, low defence
lightning: low damage, high threat, high defence
hybird: mid damage, mid threat, mid defence

is what WE want,
It's what YOU want. Which is fine, but not everyone agrees with that necessarily.

what we currently have is:-

fury: high damage, mid threat, low defence
lightning: low damage, mid threat, high defence
hybird: mid damage, high threat, high defence
And this is what I think is actually fine. Though I'd add that lightning has better defense and tools than hybrid, and the damage gap between lightning and hybrid is not that huge (unless one is defense focused and one is offense). But I don't think the solution is to change the class but to add content that makes a defense heavy tank setup RELEVANT. You can still run defense heavy tank builds now, it just not necessary.

But ultimately, we just have to agree to disagree on some of these points :)
 
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Xantia

Arch Wizard
Characters
Xantia
Platform
  1. Android
  2. PC
YES!! THIS!!!
A balanced group, but it seems that group play, (like we had from the beginning) became a bad thing and players who were used to playing alone wanted it all. Thus the never ending quest for "Balance" and cries of "They are OP"!
I enjoy both group and solo content, but I prefer to solo quests and bounties. Because I like to use a lot of Magic Find and treasure or plenty hunt... but also because chat on mobile is almost impossible during combat and rl might interrupt me. So, I like to solo and go at my own pace. 🙂

If my toon wasn't strong enough to solo maps, I'd have to join a party and I couldn't enjoy leisurely treasure or plenty hunting... and if rl interrupts, I'd have to leave and hope to find another party, when I have time. For these reasons (and others), I think it's important that all classes, be strong enough to solo quests and bounties. 💪

At the same time, I know we also want to be able to contribute to group content... so the Otters have to balance classes for both solo and groups. I don't envy them, I imagine it's difficult to find the right balance. 😬
 
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Antavious

Warrior
Characters
Antavious, suoivatna
Platform
  1. iOS
Last edited
If by trivial you mean painfully slowly soloing some bosses, then yes warriors can render it trivial (although it can be done by other classes too like priest and shaman, unsure about hunter and wizard though).
not sure priests can anymore and if they can my guess it’s extremely limited on what they can do, shaman just doesn’t have as much defence as warrior but maybe if you gut there offence to the core or spam healing pots they could. its just an example but basically a good hybrid warrior that utilises all there defensive options correctly can win against anything so groups containing one can’t fail even if it comes down to the last man.
It's what YOU want. Which is fine, but not everyone agrees with that necessarily.
kinda a game health thing really not sure how you could want different in that regard but ok I want:

fury: damage medium, threat low, defence low
lightning: damage high, threat high, defence high
hybird: damage medium, threat low, defence low

but honestly I’m just being silly 😜
Though I'd add that lightning has better defense and tools than hybrid, and the damage gap between lightning and hybrid is not that huge (unless one is defense focused and one is offense)
well it is true all the best defensive stuff is lightning, its super easy to put it all into a hybird or at least all the stuff that isn’t redundant and dropping the low damage lightning feats makes a big difference to damage and threat output if you build your toon right of course. think rally, titanic power and charge vs frenzied strikes, Phoenix strike, slash and griffin strike. one of these sets has a huge increase in damage potential.
But I don't think the solution is to change the class but to add content that makes a defense heavy tank setup RELEVANT.

I know you where away for a year when they did it but the devs tried there best to add harder content (in the form of additions to all EZ’s, raid difficulties, rift first drafts) but all where met with a lot of push back from the community for being too difficult (I was hoping content like this (just like you said) would have been a good solution but it wasn’t). Also Im pretty sure this was the driving intent behind the class changes in the mana build too, basically the devs new approach was to try fixing the issues at their source.
 

IrishElf

Citizen
Forum Moderator
I enjoy both group and solo content, but I prefer to solo quests and bounties. Because I like to use a lot of Magic Find and treasure or plenty hunt... but also because chat on mobile is almost impossible during combat and rl might interrupt me. So, I like to solo and go at my own pace. 🙂

If my toon wasn't strong enough to solo maps, I'd have to join a party and I couldn't enjoy leisurely treasure or plenty hunting... and if rl interrupts, I'd have to leave and hope to find another party, when I have time. For these reasons (and others), I think it's important that all classes, be strong enough to solo quests and bounties. 💪

At the same time, I know we also want to be able to contribute to group content... so the Otters have to balance classes for both solo and groups. I don't envy them, I imagine it's difficult to find the right balance. 😬
But back then we COULD also solo, all classes could. But then in groups we functioned well too.
 
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Rozujo

Hunter
Platform
  1. PC
I totally agree about class balancing. Fire Mages have been overpowered for a while now, and it's essential to make sure all classes are competitive and balanced. Warrior and Shadow Priest definitely need some love. It's great that you're providing this feedback; it helps the developers make the game more enjoyable for everyone.
 
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Can you please explain your post? What are you trying to say?
This picture is reality , not a fantasy novel of balance which you're cheering for .
I see you're mocking and laughing at people said the true. Your view proved that dev made wiz is OP by purpose and priest has tons of negative judge from dev/mod .

im running high lvl wiz now and this OP is fun .

Shame on priest get small buff with fabled gears because dev give a little fix of crap dps while other class have improve.
Dont worry no one "crying" anymore because they all left . Exactly we 're making joke about priest to thank for "balance"
 

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