Any Advice for Earth Shaman Tank (Lv 95)???

[Elijah Lin]

Okay, I have been a L95 earth shaman tank just over the end of last year and have not found any notable earth shammy tanks on my level… tanking at all in EU1.

Atm, I am measuring my threat, atk and survivability against every lightning tanks on my server And I have to say, it is less than glamorous sight to behold and I feel Ive hit rock bottom here (no pun intended).

Pretty discouraged with all the aspects of continuing as an earth tank (and… especially seeing the mana build patch notes on earth shammy skills, I am a little concerned about the weight it will impose as some of the skills tripled the cost).

*drinks more mana pots and wipes away sweat*

I have a few questions I want to ask the community:

1. are there any L95 Earth S Tanks in your server? And are they numerous as the stars or just a few, like the moon, sun and cloud?

2. What are the enjoyments/advantages/differences of playing earth tank compared vs Lightning tank?

3. Any advice of maxing L95 Earth tank? So, far I havent seen any post about earth shammy tanks
Whether Haste, Expertise, Savagery, Brutality and Health, Armour, Magic resist… What’s the best stat to invest on?

4. I also find that Earth Shammy tank really slow compare to lightning tank (just seeing the differences on the ultimate talents and combat performances…) It could be a me thing?

If you have read it all the way here, thanks for reading I am not sure what i hope to achieve in this post but just reaching out the community and hoping I am not the only earth shammy tank player who feels this way… could I be the only one left???

 

[Josh]

Okay, I have been a L95 earth shaman tank just over the end of last year and have not found any notable earth shammy tanks on my level… tanking at all in EU1.

Atm, I am measuring my threat, atk and survivability against every lightning tanks on my server And I have to say, it is less than glamorous sight to behold and I feel Ive hit rock bottom here (no pun intended).

Pretty discouraged with all the aspects of continuing as an earth tank (and… especially seeing the mana build patch notes on earth shammy skills, I am a little concerned about the weight it will impose as some of the skills tripled the cost).

*drinks more mana pots and wipes away sweat*

I have a few questions I want to ask the community:

1. are there any L95 Earth S Tanks in your server? And are they numerous as the stars or just a few, like the moon, sun and cloud?

2. What are the enjoyments/advantages/differences of playing earth tank compared vs Lightning tank?

3. Any advice of maxing L95 Earth tank? So, far I havent seen any post about earth shammy tanks
Whether Haste, Expertise, Savagery, Brutality and Health, Armour, Magic resist… What’s the best stat to invest on?

4. I also find that Earth Shammy tank really slow compare to lightning tank (just seeing the differences on the ultimate talents and combat performances…) It could be a me thing?

If you have read it all the way here, thanks for reading I am not sure what i hope to achieve in this post but just reaching out the community and hoping I am not the only earth shammy tank player who feels this way… could I be the only one left???

1) Not sure when you typed S Tank lv95 Earth Shaman. Is the "S" stand for S tier level 95 shaman? Anyway, not sure if I noticed any. Maybe there are a few, but more DPS focus oriented? Then again, I do not know. Likely, they're still growing & polishing themself, or I'm just not online much to notice that many maxed level earth shaman tank.

2) My Once Earth Shaman has gone back to its original subclass, water shaman. The enjoyment was just to see how well it is as a tank compare to my own lightning warrior. Over-time, earth shaman been balanced(nerfed more often than being boosted. Only recall earth shaman's ultimates having threat boost because lightning warrior have that. Gale force only because lightning warrior have access to frenzy strike since gale force is similar to that more than lightning warrior charge feat. Gale force's movement speed is slower than both frenzy strike & charge feat, likely is intentional as I bug reported it back then. Even the cooldown was quite long between usages. Back then, or even now, two classes or roles can't be exactly the same but similar)

Through all the balance in the past, currently, Lightning Warrior excel at threat & survivability (solo & group). Earth Shaman's excel at damage, single target wise.
Lightning Warrior have ability to deal with groups of mob more efficient than earth shaman

3) Have fun. Gear it as you normally would. Maxed all earth talent tree that give bonus threat generations. As some1 once type or post on forum & I won't mention his/her name, you're a tank "until the real tank shows up".

4) Yes. Is not you, is the class. Could also be what lead to Lightning Warrior Vs Earth Shaman competiton to see which class is the better tank? Those who do not tank, would likely not care as both class are fulfilling their role anyways. Currently, one class is a better tank. The lesser tank class, is better at doing more damage

Not sure what the new build have for earth shaman beside what was shown from patch note, Earth shaman's crag strike seem to function similar to Lightning Warrior's Pummel. Before, crag strike was just a damaging feat & to reduce Earth shard's cooldown, but soon it will generate more/extra threat

These are just my takes about the two tank classes. Others will have different opinion than me.
Also, I don't really need two tank so my shaman will remain as water to give others finite mana going into the new build, although I don't play it as much to not over shadow a holy priest or another water shaman, and my warrior can remain as Lightning warrior to tank since if I want to DPS then I can just play my Nature Hunter for that role.

Not sure if this helps, but I think you(me, others) just wish Earth Shamans get improvements to be better than they currently are. As I read the mana build patch notes, it seem lightning warrior sounds more interesting than Earth Shaman. And, Lightning Warrior is better than Earth Shaman (Not the damage, but survivability & threat) currently (my opinion only, not sure if it is a fact). Then again, not everything or changes are layout in the patch notes. Is impossible for two tank classes to be equal as one of the two will always over-shadow another.

 

[Antavious]

As I think you know Eli I have done much work on my shaman alt and yes they just don’t have many tools for def (or at least not as many as warriors do) kinda odd as you would think being able to hybridise with a healer would = an unkillable tank but there is only so much healing can do and it’s weapon feat based heals so you can’t take it and maintain a good rotation of damage/threat (that’s the real problem, tanks need everything you can’t just neglect a thing and get away with it)

from what I can tell best tank def comes from stacking magic resist to decent and vitality (and talents that boost hp) as much as possible.

as for threat that requires you to use single target feats the middle trees wind fury talent, even the quick fire water moves with earth attunement and a but load of mana consumption.

honestly I was working on a build like this but have had to put my plans on hold recently due to the delays with the mana build. (I was going to be an extreme consumer but will have to hold until the dust settles for sensible reasons)

 

[Heisi]

Okay, I have been a L95 earth shaman tank just over the end of last year and have not found any notable earth shammy tanks on my level… tanking at all in EU1.

Atm, I am measuring my threat, atk and survivability against every lightning tanks on my server And I have to say, it is less than glamorous sight to behold and I feel Ive hit rock bottom here (no pun intended).

Pretty discouraged with all the aspects of continuing as an earth tank (and… especially seeing the mana build patch notes on earth shammy skills, I am a little concerned about the weight it will impose as some of the skills tripled the cost).

*drinks more mana pots and wipes away sweat*

I have a few questions I want to ask the community:

1. are there any L95 Earth S Tanks in your server? And are they numerous as the stars or just a few, like the moon, sun and cloud?

2. What are the enjoyments/advantages/differences of playing earth tank compared vs Lightning tank?

3. Any advice of maxing L95 Earth tank? So, far I havent seen any post about earth shammy tanks
Whether Haste, Expertise, Savagery, Brutality and Health, Armour, Magic resist… What’s the best stat to invest on?

4. I also find that Earth Shammy tank really slow compare to lightning tank (just seeing the differences on the ultimate talents and combat performances…) It could be a me thing?

If you have read it all the way here, thanks for reading I am not sure what i hope to achieve in this post but just reaching out the community and hoping I am not the only earth shammy tank player who feels this way… could I be the only one left???

First of all : Thank you for bringing up the topic of Earth Shaman, it feels good to read about the opinions of other fellow shammies^^

I know what you feel about this sub-class but you shouldn't be discouraged, we still can achieve amazing things as Earth Shamans !
It's just that we don't mix well in group content with Lightning Warriors... (I'll explain why below^^)

I'm also not too worried about the mana patch because I think the mana restore that we'll get on Seismic Drain will surely make up for the increased costs of Earth Shard and Tremors (I don't use Terraform, Cleansing Waters will even give some mana back too)
I admit I currently use a lot of mana pots to sustain good DPS with my current build so I hope these changes will help^^

I completely agree with everything @Villy wrote before me, it is pretty much spot on

Now about your questions :

1) There are some Earth Shamans on EU2 but they are not much active at the moment (at least at the time I'm online) or maybe enjoying an other class idk... I see however much more Lightning Warriors around.

2) I don't play Warrior myself (not yet, it might change ) but what I can tell is :
An equally-equiped Lightning Warrior generates more threat than I do, that's for sure, but my single-target damage output is higher so the difference in threat is not that big, just enough so that I typically will lose aggro during a long boss fight.
Not to mention the AoE threat, Lightning Warriors are much better and again I lose aggro from the adds also.
And that is where the Earth Shaman starts to struggle... If I don't have aggro then my DPS goes down and therefore I lose even more threat to the point where I don't feel useful anymore, I should just bring another class with more DPS if a Lightning Warrior is already there.
By not having aggro I lose a lot on Berserk uptime, retaliation damage (Attune-to-Earth and Water Shield) and Blasting frequency (and I blast a lot thanks to Erosion talent). Admittedly my Poise uptime is higher then but it is still a DPS loss overall.
BUT as the mana patch notes currently state we are getting a threat boost on Crag Strike ! Will we be able to hold aggro on a Boss against a Lightning Warrior then ? Probably ! (I guess thats the point of this change anyway) but we will still lose aggro on the adds through AoE threat against them. Fair enough !
Lastly on the mobility part Shaman is at a big disadvantage compared to Warrior... Gale Force is somewhat clunky and the aftercast delay is annoying, I simply don't use it, but mostly because I don't have enough talent points to take it with my current build^^ So I have to run behind the rocket-fueled Warriors and Wizards all the time

3) As a DPS-oriented Muddy-Windy-Shaman I specced first and foremost towards high Expertise/Savagery/Brutality then enough Haste to feel comfortable with my rotation/cast times. I slotted a decent amount of Vitality that benefits even further from the Earthen Fortitude talent. Regarding Armor / Magic Armor I invested just enough to not go too deep in diminishing returns territory while full-buffed and attuned-to-earth (typically tanking with around 45% on both). I feel I don't need to go to 52-53% (with enchantment and relic) to be resilient enough.
We have enough tools to be durable and not stress the healer while maintaining good DPS.
My Muddy-Windy-Shaman runs all Raids solo on Heroic-10+ with relative ease. I just have to switch from Dram of Treasure to Dram of Healing for Catacombs

4) If with "slow" you mean mobility-wise then I already answered that in question 2)
Gale Force can help mitigate that problem but we will still lag behind most of the time. This Ultimate could maybe need a revamp regarding the animation, aftercast and cooldown. But I guess I should be careful with what I'm asking^^

Bottom line is : I really enjoy my Earth Shaman very much and I can handle all current content with him. I feel I'm being useful to the group as a tank/dps and when a strong Lightning Warrior appears... well... I guess I'm still bringing some decent DPS and unique Rock Bite debuffs to the table^^ Let's see what the mana patch changes do, maybe the Earth Shaman will become the highest single-target aggro-holder while Lightning Warrior stays the king of AoE threat !

 

[Elijah Lin]

Thanks everyone who’s been chipping in some insight!! Its nice to know we are a lot more calmer and chilled players who chose to rise an earth shaman tank! (Or at least to dapping into hybrid)

Just to be clear, I didnt make this post to throw the earth shammy tank in the bin… its really not my goal. Just expressing the wide chasm between two classes in regards of their different branches and skills. Since I invested so much time and energy in making my earth tank shammy really good, I can see I will always be over shadowed by lightning warriors 🫠

And it is no ones fault really, a good geared warrior will always come on the top of the charts as their feats and skills are unmatchable and frankly, super efficient… while on the other, earth shammy tank just doesnt cut as well. Nuff said

Well, thank you for everyone adding their two pence to the mix!! It has been nice to read that there are still some high level shammy out there. (Even though its more dps …)

I used to play more hybrid water-earth-wind when I was leveling up the L80 ladder. Since being maxed, I wonder if I choose the wrong route. I already had a holy priest and didnt want another healer … ach well!

I do understand both of the classes cant be the same tank but nevertheless, it still frustrates me

However, I do enjoy playing solo- just me, ma enemies and my earth tank. Cheers everyone

 

[Sinjin]

Earth shaman aren’t meant to tank as well as a lightning warrior. I do not know why this is so, but it’s pretty obvious that having one high dps single target damage spell costs them everything else… because there really isn’t anything an earth shaman has that is objectively better than lightning warrior except that one single-target damage feat.

I could wax poetic about how retaliation doesn’t get a bonus and how earth has to spend 30 points to even get it to crit and how that doesn’t really compare to lightning warriors who can proc aoe threat generation over 20 times a minute (and each hit can crit and get a mastery bonus to both damage and threat, and ultimate threat multipliers which don’t add threat to all Earth Shaman damage)… but at this point, it’s all been said many times.

I always thought Earth Shaman were supposed to be the second tank class, but really they’re just second-class tanks. Fun to play though, but don’t expect to do anything except dps when a lightning warrior is about. You’re not meant to.

 

[Tareco]

Earth shaman aren’t meant to tank as well as a lightning warrior. I do not know why this is so, but it’s pretty obvious that having one high dps single target damage spell costs them everything else… because there really isn’t anything an earth shaman has that is objectively better than lightning warrior except that one single-target damage feat.

I could wax poetic about how retaliation doesn’t get a bonus and how earth has to spend 30 points to even get it to crit and how that doesn’t really compare to lightning warriors who can proc aoe threat generation over 20 times a minute (and each hit can crit and get a mastery bonus to both damage and threat, and ultimate threat multipliers which don’t add threat to all Earth Shaman damage)… but at this point, it’s all been said many times.

I always thought Earth Shaman were supposed to be the second tank class, but really they’re just second-class tanks. Fun to play though, but don’t expect to do anything except dps when a lightning warrior is about. You’re not meant to.

And even so the Devs choose to not bother with anything of those problems, and claim that they are in fact balancing the classes.

Everyone that's playing this subclass long enough can see all those problems, and yet all the sub class get it's more healing/mana regen and more threat gen on Crag Strike.

So, answering the OP why u don't see any Earth Shamans around it's because everyone has changed to Dps Hibrid Builds, cause almost Pure Earth doesn't get enough tools to get its job of taking done so well as the other Tank class.

 

[Dawnfire]

I think it's important to differentiate between 2 scenarios: You being the only tank or having multiple ones.

In most mmos tank don't need to compete with each other due to group content either being instanced or there's so many in the open world that you just don't really meet. As such in this scenario Earth is a completely viable tank. In this game this can occur in raids (granted you run it without other tanks), and maybe in rift/95 elders/harder ez content, but as they are open world, there's always a chance another one will show up, so I'd really only count raids as the most viable option. And raids is not for everyone.

Scenario two is what is pretty much being discussed here, and it's not even the tanking aspect, but the who holds the aggro/deals more damage. With very little group content being instanced, this is a somewhat unique feature of this game that some tanks do race each other. Not getting hit means penalty for both warrior and shaman tanks, so if they are not main tanking it usually means they become (lesser) dps (which understandably not something many of them want to do, but funnily enough building minimum defense and maximum offense is the way to be the main tank in such scenarios). I'm sure most of your experience comes from EZ, so unless they'd reduce map max player count, so many instances of the same map can happen with a tank in each (basically making it an instanced content), I don't see this changing any time soon.

I think the best way to be the main tank and not have to deal with other tanks is to simply make friends / join a guild that is willing to do group content. That way, while EZ will still be a gamble, but the rest of the group content, you can just main tank. Most of my tanking comes from this, and it's pretty much what I enjoyed the most, doing group content with friends. Also if you are on EU1 and I'm the sole other tank at EZ, just shoot me a message, I don't mind stepping back a bit.

P.S.: From what I can tell Earth should be the single target king, while Lightning will be the AoE king next patch. Hopefully it will help to be a main tank in these less than ideal scenarios too

P.P.S.: If we had dual spec, we could switch around, so we only have a single tank in open world group content (I wouldn't mind running Fury/War Cry alongside hybrid tank)

 

[Heisi]

And even so the Devs choose to not bother with anything of those problems, and claim that they are in fact balancing the classes.

Everyone that's playing this subclass long enough can see all those problems, and yet all the sub class get it's more healing/mana regen and more threat gen on Crag Strike.

So, answering the OP why u don't see any Earth Shamans around it's because everyone has changed to Dps Hibrid Builds, cause almost Pure Earth doesn't get enough tools to get its job of taking done so well as the other Tank class.

Every time I read something about "pure Earth" opposed to "hybrid builds" I just don't get it.
Even though I left the Erosion talent at 1 point, I have all other Earth talent fully unlocked. Naturally I have invested talent points in Water and Wind also but I still feel like an Earth Shaman with extra perks.

Then what is a "pure Earth" Shaman ? A lvl95 who has all 105 points in Earth talents and 0 reborn ?
Or maybe you're talking about leveling Shamans, but then again like most classes it is advisable to spend some points in other talent trees to ease up the leveling process (Mana Gusts was very helpful). Plus you can't compare tanking performance between leveling toons.

You consider that Earth Shaman doesn't get enough tools to get its job done as well as the other tank class. I have to disagree on that !
What is the tank's job ? To generate more threat than healers and DPS classes (keeping them safe with higher Poise uptime) AND not die in the process !
A well built DPS-hybrid-Shaman can do that while maintaining higher DPS than a Lightning Warrior !
I'll admit that there is a caveat to this : the cooldowns we have on AoE threat generation which can cause problems when waves of adds are spawning too fast.

I always hear that Lightning Warriors can survive better than Earth Shamans, I don't know about that... I feel I'm doing a pretty good job at staying alive be it in group or solo content (solo Event Ladder, solo heroic Raids, etc...).

I don't think Earth Shaman is a second-class tank, I think we are an other tank class sometimes better suited to the situation as a Lightning Warrior, sometimes the other way around and currently we don't work well with them together.
That might change with the mana patch.

 

[Heisi]

I think it's important to differentiate between 2 scenarios: You being the only tank or having multiple ones.

In most mmos tank don't need to compete with each other due to group content either being instanced or there's so many in the open world that you just don't really meet. As such in this scenario Earth is a completely viable tank. In this game this can occur in raids (granted you run it without other tanks), and maybe in rift/95 elders/harder ez content, but as they are open world, there's always a chance another one will show up, so I'd really only count raids as the most viable option. And raids is not for everyone.

Scenario two is what is pretty much being discussed here, and it's not even the tanking aspect, but the who holds the aggro/deals more damage. With very little group content being instanced, this is a somewhat unique feature of this game that some tanks do race each other. Not getting hit means penalty for both warrior and shaman tanks, so if they are not main tanking it usually means they become (lesser) dps (which understandably not something many of them want to do, but funnily enough building minimum defense and maximum offense is the way to be the main tank in such scenarios). I'm sure most of your experience comes from EZ, so unless they'd reduce map max player count, so many instances of the same map can happen with a tank in each (basically making it an instanced content), I don't see this changing any time soon.

I think the best way to be the main tank and not have to deal with other tanks is to simply make friends / join a guild that is willing to do group content. That way, while EZ will still be a gamble, but the rest of the group content, you can just main tank. Most of my tanking comes from this, and it's pretty much what I enjoyed the most, doing group content with friends. Also if you are on EU1 and I'm the sole other tank at EZ, just shoot me a message, I don't mind stepping back a bit.

P.S.: From what I can tell Earth should be the single target king, while Lightning will be the AoE king next patch. Hopefully it will help to be a main tank in these less than ideal scenarios too

P.P.S.: If we had dual spec, we could switch around, so we only have a single tank in open world group content (I wouldn't mind running Fury/War Cry alongside hybrid tank)

You absolutely nailed it ! That's exactly what I was talking about, thank you

 

[Tareco]

I'm from US1, and what i have said is what i have seen here, even if u guys aren't seen others E Shamans here complaining they're not happy, at least the people I've talked about the new patch.

At this point We definitely need a dual spec. We have elders, raids, ez, rift, and have to spend time and gold to change between builds, and not everytime the content we are doing need another healer/tank/dps.

 

[Tareco]

Every time I read something about "pure Earth" opposed to "hybrid builds" I just don't get it.
Even though I left the Erosion talent at 1 point, I have all other Earth talent fully unlocked. Naturally I have invested talent points in Water and Wind also but I still feel like an Earth Shaman with extra perks.

Then what is a "pure Earth" Shaman ? A lvl95 who has all 105 points in Earth talents and 0 reborn ?
Or maybe you're talking about leveling Shamans, but then again like most classes it is advisable to spend some points in other talent trees to ease up the leveling process (Mana Gusts was very helpful). Plus you can't compare tanking performance between leveling toons.

You consider that Earth Shaman doesn't get enough tools to get its job done as well as the other tank class. I have to disagree on that !
What is the tank's job ? To generate more threat than healers and DPS classes (keeping them safe with higher Poise uptime) AND not die in the process !
A well built DPS-hybrid-Shaman can do that while maintaining higher DPS than a Lightning Warrior !
I'll admit that there is a caveat to this : the cooldowns we have on AoE threat generation which can cause problems when waves of adds are spawning too fast.

I always hear that Lightning Warriors can survive better than Earth Shamans, I don't know about that... I feel I'm doing a pretty good job at staying alive be it in group or solo content (solo Event Ladder, solo heroic Raids, etc...).

I don't think Earth Shaman is a second-class tank, I think we are an other tank class sometimes better suited to the situation as a Lightning Warrior, sometimes the other way around and currently we don't work well with them together.
That might change with the mana patch.

When i say almost pure E Shaman i mean spending almost all points in the earth or picking all the talents, and then water/wind. I think everyone here knows very well that the building of the Shaman class it's different from the others.

 

[Elijah Lin]

Ohhh myyyyyy… a passionate debate!!!

Well, that is good point made by Athon, two scenarios: solo tank and group content tank.

Oh Sinjin, Im sorry to read that earth shammy tank is a second class tank. Personally, I dont really class them first or second ranks, as I am not really a competitor trying to prove to everyone “I have a great tank class”. I rather show by example. Clearing not winning the case here

I can warmly agree that most of the faults and imperfections that mentioned in this thread or others before about the earth shaman is because we’ve played it and experienced it.

Unlike the ice wizzard, who’s now got so many living memes, Earth shamans players are not so vocal about tanking.

I remember at some point, when Earth Shammy were introduced the threat generation were over exceeded lightning warriors and the devs had to tone that down??? I wasnt reading much back then it vaguely and slowly was the demise of this sub class.

Really you can build a buffier water shaman with the earth talent rather than tanking

In regards of play style… earth shaman vs lightning warrior… I do find lightning warriors are more aggressive than earth shaman.

1. With lightning warrior 3rd branch ultimate, every block you lesser 1s CD… that means, you have quicker CD and ready to attack as soon as you can! Gung Ho!!!! And how Sinjin mentioned the 4th branch of Lightning warrior Thunder Strike has a chance to proc and crit! Really… apart one hit rock shard that takes like a min or two or three to CD… How many thunder strikes can you fit in that time?!?!?

Okay Im not making a case out of it… but I do have say, an Earth shammy play style is really laid back. Big boom Hit, crit and wait for retaliation I mean, with Erosion, spreading DOT on self… thats nice defence and prolonging death but unlike warriors third branch (again need to mention this as an example) they increase their armour class, block chance and mastery, investing that is a must as they can invest their runes on something else.

As an Earth Shammy, I dont really have that luxury as our 3rd branch increases max health when we use an earth feat… Wheres the excitement gone I kinda have to ask…

Well, Im a little off point, but it needs to be said, that seeing the comparisons yourself between two branches you can, for sure, tell who’s really taking the tanking trophy in every way.

They are designed that way. And its more fun, imo. It is a lot more engaging as lightning warrior.

I think Earth Shaman isnt so bad with threat generation when it came to the horde raid in halloween ez. Although maintaining the threat and keeping alive was a lot more difficult, if i remember

With the earthquake stun, I never take that as its too long CD and wasting a wee space for my water shield. Or even Tidal wave! That was really fun when Im a crowded place with tons of mobs, love the tidal wave as a tank!

Im practically shouting with Tidal wave, “Mobs come to me!!!”
And thats not even an earth feat


And again, thanks for everyone sharing. Its been nice to read And really interesting to see the different POV we hold as earth shaman players ^^ Take care, everyone!