Which do you prefer?

  • The New Tool-Tips for Stats that show the actual values

    Votes: 34 27.2%
  • The Old Tool-Tips that show the Pool Values

    Votes: 91 72.8%
  • Total voters
    125
  • Poll closed .

Yinn

Citizen
Characters
Yinn
Platform
PC
so when exactly will the display of stats be rolled back? since it looks that way if player opinion will be honored. because I can't play like this. hopefully there won't be any "compromise" either.
 

Ekimie

Hunter
Royal Guardian
Platform
Steam
so when exactly will the display of stats be rolled back? since it looks that way if player opinion will be honored. because I can't play like this. hopefully there won't be any "compromise" either.
the end result isnt finished yet, so not sure they plan to roll back before we at least tried it. I for one hope to first see the finished setup of stats, because the old one was awful and gave me headaches
 
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Zaphyra

Master Villager
Characters
Retired
Platform
Android, PC
Last edited
At first I didn't like the new system, because I was used to the old number system... but now I prefer the new system, because it tells me the stat values in percentages... which allows me to consider the value of each stat and how it will affect my build.

For example, when trying to choose which piece of gear to use... I can now see that one piece of gear offers 1% more Crit Chance, while the other gear offers 20% more Crit Damage or 5% more Armor... then I can choose which stat, will most benefit my current build.

However, the talk of diminishing returns has me a little confused... are the percentages displayed accurate? Do they take into account diminishing returns? 😬
 

Giruv

Merchant
Royal Guardian
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
are the percentages displayed accurate? Do they take into account diminishing returns?
They do take into account diminishing return, but I'd say they are slightly inaccurate, for most case they are almost hit the mark, on some case they can be far off the mark usually when you start having relic or reinforcement rune into the mix.

If you like the percentages the old UI also has it, which I think make it better than the current one.
 

Attachments

Yinn

Citizen
Characters
Yinn
Platform
PC
.. after a considerable amount of time ... I still can't play like this. There is no getting used to numbers that are possibly inaccurate and make no sense. I'm just vendoring everything and thus am missing out on level appropriate gear. Change it back PLEASE. I want to play again. But not logging on anymore the way it is now.
 

Zaphyra

Master Villager
Characters
Retired
Platform
Android, PC
Last edited
Yesterday, I did my first mass-crafting, since the changes to gear stats. I crafted over 1200 level 91 Fire Wiz staves (yes, I said 1200 😳)... trying to get a Legendary staff, with the stats I prefer (and yes, I finally got an awesome staff 🀩).

Here's my feedback, based on using my low-level Hunter to craft 1000s of staves: :geek:πŸ‘‡

Before the Stat Changes
  1. My Hunter could see the exact number values for each stat, which allowed me to choose the gear/runes with the highest number values... and quickly salvage the gear, that I won't use or sell.
  2. My Wizard could see how those numbers would affect her overall stats, which allowed me to choose the gear and runes, which would most benefit my character build.
After the Stat Changes
  1. My Hunter can only see a percentage value for some stats... and I'm assuming this percentage is being rounded off, because my hunter is only level 9 and the staves I was crafting, are level 91? πŸ€”
  2. Which means that my Hunter had to choose several staves and pass them to my Wizard, so she could take a look and see more detailed stats... this isn't so bad, when trying to choose a staff... but it's a nightmare, when trying to choose reinforcement runes. πŸ˜–
  3. In order to choose the strongest reinforcement runes... I would need to pass 100s of staves to my Wizard, so she could see more detailed stats and choose the strongest runes (ie, Crit Chance of 8% instead of 7.5%... yes, I'm OCD like that 🀫). Needless to say, I did NOT pass the staffs to my Wiz... I just chose the runes I wanted and hoped for the best (ain't nobody got time to pass 100s of staffs to our main chars, to examine runes πŸ˜’).
Now that I have tried mass-crafting before and after the stat changes, these are my thoughts:
  1. Please give us tool tips that tell us an exact number value for stats/runes/glyphs (that does not change, regardless of the level/class of the character viewing the tool tips)... AND a percentage value (that changes, based on the level/class/current build and dimishing values, of the character viewing the tool tip... and shows us how these stats will affect our current build, once equipped).
  2. This will allow crafters of different classes/levels to craft gear for others... and choose the best gear, by choosing stats/runes/glyphs with the highest number values.
  3. This will also allow players to choose gear for themselves, by choosing stats/runes/glyphs with the highest number values AND seeing a percentage value (that takes into account our current build and diminishing values)... to help us choose the best stats for our build and prevent us from putting points, into stats that we've already maxed.
  4. Keep stat descriptions simple and consistent, use the same terms in the tool-tips, that you use in the Character interface. It's probably easier for new players to understand "Cooldown Rate" vs "Expertise"... or "Mana Regen" vs "Will".
Hope this feedback is helpful and thanks for listening. 😊(y)
 

Giruv

Merchant
Royal Guardian
Characters
Verrier
Platform
PC
For those that prefer the current stat UI, would you mind explaining why do you prefer the current one compared to the old one? Thank you!
 

V

Mad Otter Games
Developer
Last edited
For those that prefer the current stat UI, would you mind explaining why do you prefer the current one compared to the old one? Thank you!
The old UI had an unnecessary layer of abstraction. Picking up a piece of gear with 5,000 Expertise and 4,600 Bonus Armor requires translation. We need to translate those numbers and words mentally to understand its effect. Expertise would translate to cooldown reduction while 5,000 could equate to a vast range of percentages based on your character's current investment into the stat. If your character already had 30,000 points of Expertise invested, then those 5,000 points are worth less than if your character only had 5,000 points invested. This defeats the purpose of having a fixed number when the result ends up fluctuating regardless.

The old UI had a separation of characteristics that would easily confuse players. You had stats, which you could increase from gear, runes and talents and were subject to diminishing returns. Then you had attributes to their right which you grow through stats, talents, spells etc. and were not subject to diminishing returns. Why have a pipeline if the system does not utilize it for every case? Having stats feed attributes while also bypassing stats on occasion and directly increasing attributes through certain spells and talents muddled the system and befuddled many players. In programming this is extremely bad practice, when you directly mutate an attribute rather than go through its dedicated mutator method (stat). Yes, we still have this issue now behind the scenes but hopefully we're on the road towards resolving it.

The old UI displayed too many numbers to decipher. You pick up an item with 3,000 Armor. Equipping it would increase the total amount of points you have in your Armor Stat. The increase in your actual Armor stat's percent would vary based on diminishing returns - the more you have, the less you get. Your Armor stat provides a percentage bonus that is channeled into your Physical Protection attribute. This attribute is a collection of many different sources including your stats, talents, spells etc. but does not indicate in any way where your gains stem from. The new system houses all of this information in a single attribute, and while it does not clarify any particulars regarding where your numbers are coming from, it is easier to take in at a glance.
1613913234944.png

The old UI is much more complicated to explain. Because so much under the hood information was available to us, players wanted to understand it. This is a blessing to min-maxers and a curse to casual players. Ideally we would still be able to see our numbers in such depth and granularity, but it would be hidden behind additional panels and tool-tips for those who are purposely seeking that information rather than showcased all at once on the character sheet as series of points, percentages and progress bars designed to overwhelm and overload its viewers.

I'm sure I could think of additional rationale behind my preference for the new UI over time, but I've highlighted the main points. Is the new system perfect? Not yet, as can be seen from the voter turnout and disparity. However, I feel that we're on the right track and most importantly the developers have the right mindset and goals for the new system - simplicity and clarity. That is the foundation of any promising gear system, and the old UI was lacking in those qualities in spades.

I also believe that we would have already made strides towards addressing many of player concerns with the new UI if the developers weren't met with such a conflicting response. Perhaps if the majority of players chanted "Keep moving forward" rather than "Let's turn around" we would be able to see this through to the end and better judge its feasibility. The road to positive change is rarely straight and easy; it's riddled with obstacles intimidating us into retreat but if we push through we could very well end up with a system incorporating the best of both worlds.
 
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Zaphyra

Master Villager
Characters
Retired
Platform
Android, PC
The old UI had an unnecessary layer of abstraction. Picking up a piece of gear with 5,000 Expertise and 4,600 Bonus Armor requires translation. We need to translate those numbers and words mentally to understand its effect. Expertise would translate to cooldown reduction while 5,000 could equate to a vast range of percentages based on your character's current investment into the stat. If your character already had 30,000 points of Expertise invested, then those 5,000 points are worth less than if your character only had 5,000 points invested. This defeats the purpose of having a fixed number when the result ends up fluctuating regardless.

The old UI had a separation of characteristics that would easily confuse players. You had stats, which you could increase from gear, runes and talents and were subject to diminishing returns. Then you had attributes to their right which you grow through stats, talents, spells etc. and were not subject to diminishing returns. Why have a pipeline if the system does not utilize it for every case? Having stats feed attributes while also bypassing stats on occasion and directly increasing attributes through certain spells and talents muddled the system and befuddled many players. In programming this is extremely bad practice, when you directly mutate an attribute rather than go through its dedicated mutator method (stat). Yes, we still have this issue now behind the scenes but hopefully we're on the road towards resolving it.

The old UI displayed too many numbers to decipher. You pick up an item with 3,000 Armor. Equipping it would increase the total amount of points you have in your Armor Stat. The increase in your actual Armor stat's percent would vary based on diminishing returns - the more you have, the less you get. Your Armor stat provides a percentage bonus that is channeled into your Physical Protection attribute. This attribute is a collection of many different sources including your stats, talents, spells etc. but does not indicate in any way where your gains stem from. The new system houses all of this information in a single attribute, and while it does not clarify any particulars regarding where your numbers are coming from, it is easier to take in at a glance.
View attachment 11147

The old UI is much more complicated to explain. Because so much under the hood information was available to us, players wanted to understand it. This is a blessing to min-maxers and a curse to casual players. Ideally we would still be able to see our numbers in such depth and granularity, but it would be hidden behind additional panels and tool-tips for those who are purposely seeking that information rather than showcased all at once on the character sheet as series of points, percentages and progress bars designed to overwhelm and overload its viewers.

I'm sure I could think of additional rationale behind my preference for the new UI over time, but I've highlighted the main points. Is the new system perfect? Not yet, as can be seen from the voter turnout and disparity. However, I feel that we're on the right track and most importantly the developers have the right mindset and goals for the new system - simplicity and clarity. That is the foundation of any promising gear system, and the old UI was lacking in those qualities in spades.

I also believe that we would have already made strides towards addressing many of player concerns with the new UI if the developers weren't met with such a conflicting response. Perhaps if the majority of players chanted "Keep moving forward" rather than "Let's turn around" we would be able to see this through to the end and better judge its feasibility. The road to positive change is rarely straight and easy; it's riddled with obstacles intimidating us into retreat but if we push through we could very well end up with a system incorporating the best of both worlds.
KAVE... I was thinking that it would be good to have 2 sets of stats on each piece of gear:

1 - Flat numeric stats, that tell us the base value of the stat on the gear... so those who are crafting gear for other classes/levels, can use the static numbers, to choose the strongest gear/runes.

2 - Percentage that tells us how the stats will affect our current build, if equipped... taking into account our current build, level and diminishing returns... so players can choose the best gear for their build.

My understanding of the stat system is pretty basic... would this idea work... or am I missing something... or a LOT of somethings? πŸ€”πŸ˜³πŸ˜…πŸ™ƒ
 
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Jytal

Servant of Mallok
Platform
iOS
The old UI had an unnecessary layer of abstraction. Picking up a piece of gear with 5,000 Expertise and 4,600 Bonus Armor requires translation. We need to translate those numbers and words mentally to understand its effect. Expertise would translate to cooldown reduction while 5,000 could equate to a vast range of percentages based on your character's current investment into the stat. If your character already had 30,000 points of Expertise invested, then those 5,000 points are worth less than if your character only had 5,000 points invested. This defeats the purpose of having a fixed number when the result ends up fluctuating regardless.

The old UI had a separation of characteristics that would easily confuse players. You had stats, which you could increase from gear, runes and talents and were subject to diminishing returns. Then you had attributes to their right which you grow through stats, talents, spells etc. and were not subject to diminishing returns. Why have a pipeline if the system does not utilize it for every case? Having stats feed attributes while also bypassing stats on occasion and directly increasing attributes through certain spells and talents muddled the system and befuddled many players. In programming this is extremely bad practice, when you directly mutate an attribute rather than go through its dedicated mutator method (stat). Yes, we still have this issue now behind the scenes but hopefully we're on the road towards resolving it.

The old UI displayed too many numbers to decipher. You pick up an item with 3,000 Armor. Equipping it would increase the total amount of points you have in your Armor Stat. The increase in your actual Armor stat's percent would vary based on diminishing returns - the more you have, the less you get. Your Armor stat provides a percentage bonus that is channeled into your Physical Protection attribute. This attribute is a collection of many different sources including your stats, talents, spells etc. but does not indicate in any way where your gains stem from. The new system houses all of this information in a single attribute, and while it does not clarify any particulars regarding where your numbers are coming from, it is easier to take in at a glance.
View attachment 11147

The old UI is much more complicated to explain. Because so much under the hood information was available to us, players wanted to understand it. This is a blessing to min-maxers and a curse to casual players. Ideally we would still be able to see our numbers in such depth and granularity, but it would be hidden behind additional panels and tool-tips for those who are purposely seeking that information rather than showcased all at once on the character sheet as series of points, percentages and progress bars designed to overwhelm and overload its viewers.

I'm sure I could think of additional rationale behind my preference for the new UI over time, but I've highlighted the main points. Is the new system perfect? Not yet, as can be seen from the voter turnout and disparity. However, I feel that we're on the right track and most importantly the developers have the right mindset and goals for the new system - simplicity and clarity. That is the foundation of any promising gear system, and the old UI was lacking in those qualities in spades.

I also believe that we would have already made strides towards addressing many of player concerns with the new UI if the developers weren't met with such a conflicting response. Perhaps if the majority of players chanted "Keep moving forward" rather than "Let's turn around" we would be able to see this through to the end and better judge its feasibility. The road to positive change is rarely straight and easy; it's riddled with obstacles intimidating us into retreat but if we push through we could very well end up with a system incorporating the best of both worlds.
While it is true that for a casual player, it is to simple to look at the % instead of the 20.1k armor, the % system just does not work with diminishing returns.
Alternatively, if the old character UI showed the % but if hovered/long press for the advanced tool-tip, it showed the raw number it would be help both casuals and min/maxers. The problem with the old stat system was not the raw number versus %, it was the tool-tips having no explanation of stats. The tool-tips need to be greatly improved or a better explanation of them in the beginning of the game so players have a better understanding of them.
In the current stat system, I am currently building out my recently leveled 95 toon. I have a pretty good understanding of the stat system and I have ample amount of help from friends and guildies to make sure everything goes right. I wanted to make sure I had 30% of magic resistance so I got a 6.9% magic resist ring, at 28.2% magic resistance before it will definitely get me over 30% magic resistance, and maybe even be extra enough to match my armor, I equip the ring, I check my magic resistance, 32.6%.... what? The ring said 6.9% magic resistance, the stat change between the ring I had with no magic resistance compared to the new one said +6.9% magic resistance, but I got 4.4% magic resistance. Every tooltip said my magic resistance should be higher, sure I got my goal but not anywhere I expected it to be. I was floored at the difference from diminishing returns, I can't imagine explaining to a new casual player how those %'s got there besides, "diminishing returns means you get less stats."
 

Esmee

Wizard
Characters
Esmee Goldenflame
Platform
Android, PC, Steam
Last edited
Screenshot_2021-02-20-12-10-52.pngScreenshot_2021-02-20-11-35-00.png
I don't understand why I'm stronger using the level 71 necklace vs the level 74. I'm combat level 74 and the 74 necklace brings my lifesteal up from 203.6 to 206.3 it also increases my fires spells damage. The only thing I lose is a small percent of my cool down ratevwhich I took care of by using zyphers enclave. I examined my character stats with both necklaces and in theory the 74 should have made me stronger but experimenting with fighting level 75 blue bounties I am much much stronger using the level 71. It doesnt make sense and could be a bug. However I put a lot of thought in my build which is part of my own gameplay. I like to be able to solo as much as possible and i need to know the true values of what I'm equipping instead of having to guess or experiment with every piece of gear because I cant trust the numbers or even the stats in this case. I've been playing off and on for 9 yrs. I'm just getting discouraged by this. It's frustrating when it should be fun. I do appreciate the fact that its a small dev team and that they take into account the user base instead of Willy nilly changing things....oh wait 😘
 

V

Mad Otter Games
Developer
KAVE... I was thinking that it would be good to have 2 sets of stats on each piece of gear:

1 - Flat numeric stats, that tell us the base value of the stat on the gear... so those who are crafting gear for other classes/levels, can use the static numbers, to choose the strongest gear/runes.

2 - Percentage that tells us how the stats will affect our current build, if equipped... taking into account our current build, level and diminishing returns... so players can choose the best gear for their build.

My understanding of the stat system is pretty basic... would this idea work... or am I missing something... or a LOT of somethings? πŸ€”πŸ˜³πŸ˜…πŸ™ƒ
It is definitely a reasonable solution to consider, but there are also issues thanks to the presence of diminishing returns. It seems like what players miss the most about the old system is the coupling of static values with dynamic values. The static values indicates the inherent power of the item's stats while the dynamic values personalize that information for the individual player based on their level and current stat allotment.

Thanks to diminishing returns, your later investments into a particular stat are worth less than your earlier investments. Your proposal works well when comparing two pieces of gear but what happens when viewing an item that has already been equipped? Either it would only show the static values which wouldn't add up to what we see in our stat sheet or it would show both the static and dynamic value where the dynamic one is likely incorrect. I'm not sure if the game is able to determine the source of stats in the stat pool - it just tallies everything up and throws it into the formula. This means that a piece of gear would have to check whether it is a late or early investment to show the correct value of exactly how much it contributes to your stat - and I don't think that is possible and if it was it would fluctuate often.

This is why I still firmly believe that diminishing returns has to go. It is the primary culprit behind the confusion.
 
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Zaphyra

Master Villager
Characters
Retired
Platform
Android, PC
It is definitely a reasonable solution to consider, but there are also issues thanks to the presence of diminishing returns. It seems like what players miss the most about the old system is the coupling of static values with dynamic values. The static values indicates the inherent power of the item's stats while the dynamic values personalize that information for the individual player based on their level and current stat allotment.

Thanks to diminishing returns, your later investments into a particular stat are worth less than your earlier investments. Your proposal works well when comparing two pieces of gear but what happens when viewing an item that has already been equipped? Either it would only show the static values which wouldn't add up to what we see in our stat sheet or it would show both the static and dynamic value where the dynamic one is likely incorrect. I'm not sure if the game is able to determine the source of stats in the stat pool - it just tallies everything up and throws it into the formula. This means that a piece of gear would have to check whether it is a late or early investment to show the correct value of exactly how much it contributes to your stat - and I don't think that is possible and if it was it would fluctuate often.

This is why I still firmly believe that diminishing returns has to go. It is the primary culprit behind the confusion.
Agreed... flat/numeric stats would be much easier for everyone to understand... and if stats were listed on the character page, like this... πŸ€“πŸ‘‡

STAT.......... current / level cap

MASTERY.......... 1200 / 1500
EXPERTISE.......... 1100 / 1000

In the above example, I believe players could easily see that their build could use 300 more mastery and 100 less expertise... and choose gear, based on those numbers.

Devs could even take it a step further and use color-coding:

GREEN = Stats within 100 points of cap.
ORANGE = Stats need more points.
RED = Stats exceed cap and excess points are wasted.
 

sirbabbo

Guest
So the new patch is coming out and we favored the old retuned and was ignored. I don’t understand why create a poll/vote for feedback but not used? We clearly would love to help the game grow and don’t want to affect the style play so we thought our vote would help.. not angry or upset on this but trying to figure out why do the vote?
Thanks
 
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