15-Player Raid Balance

[Damon Otter]

Hi,
We just made 15-player raids a bit easier.

Enemy health has been reduced by 20%, and enemy damage reduced by 10%.

Best, Damon

 

[V]

I wanted to share some screenshots from a 15 player Rank 7 Rookery Raid today in order to paint a picture of the reality of the situation.












I will now list the levels of the players in the chart in order:

1. Level 95 Nature
2. Level 95 Lightning
3. Level 95 Shadow
4. Level 89 Nature
5. Level 85 Fire
6. Level 66 Shadow
7. Level 76 Earth
8. Level 50 Nature
9. Level 83 Holy
10. Level 73 Earth
11. Level 33 Nature
12. Level 38 Nature
13. Level 24 Nature
14. Level 95 Holy
15. Level 75 Holy

The first thing to notice is that the top 2 players in the charts combined dealt over 60% of the group's damage. Without level 95 DPS, I highly doubt that it would have been possible to complete the Raid in time.

The second thing to notice is that the overall team consisted of players ranging from level 24 up to 95 and yet only 3 players were able to deal 1/15 (6.66%) of the group's damage. Until the performance gap between is narrowed, this is what we're dealing with - 15 player Raids depend upon a few key players pulling the weight for everyone else.

The reason I'm posting this is to shed light on the issue of scaling: Are 15 player Raids balanced for the average player, or are they balanced for the level 95 optimized player? I think the current scaling greatly overestimates how powerful the average player is. This Raid was not even high enough to qualify as Bronze Tier and I'm not sure whether a team without a level 95 carrying them would have been able to manage it.

Thus my request is to greatly reduce the scaling in group Raids for No-Tier and Bronze Tier Raids so that mixed levels can participate without having to rely on level 95s. Silver Tier Raids can begin to require more strategy and better build quality, and Gold Tier Raids can amp it up even further.

One way to accomplish this without hard nerfing the scaling is to limit the number of enemies in certain Raids such as Palace and Woods. Both of those Raids throw too many minions at players which can quickly overwhelm them.

 

[V]

If the goal is to bottle-neck new players from progressing in Raids and turning them away from Raiding altogether, then the goal has been met. Rank 10 Rookery, the first level of Bronze and the one needed to unlock the other Raids. Trying to lead a team of newbies through it so they can continue:



5 Resurrects and 10 Full Heals later, this is the reward:


This discourages higher levels from assisting lower levels as well.

Suggestion:

• Remove Lilith Rune damage until Silver or Gold Tier Raids
• Reduce the scaling for 6 and 15 player raids further

 

[Lalocat]

Are 15 player Raids balanced for the average player, or are they balanced for the level 95 optimized player?

It seems obvious that all raids are balanced for the level 95 optimized player. You got things like Cure not working at all under level 95 (even in solo raid), if your charts aren't enough evidence.

 

[Ildranach]

It seems obvious that all raids are balanced for the level 95 optimized player. You got things like Cure not working at all under level 95 (even in solo raid), if your charts aren't enough evidence.

Technically it is because the mob level is 105 always, not necessarily that it's scaled for 95 optomized; I will agree that it certainly feels that way.
Incidentally, this is also how the health numbers aren't visible and the display always shows a skull; the values are scaled to player level. This plays havoc with runes like cure, cleansing waters, nature's veil, wiz invis feat, anything that compares to mob level. It would be nice for it to be true scaling (i.e. Mob level goes down, health numbers visible) and it would allow non-maxed players a greater range of strategies.

 

[ripcord]

Technically it is because the mob level is 105 always, not necessarily that it's scaled for 95 optomized; I will agree that it certainly feels that way.
Incidentally, this is also how the health numbers aren't visible and the display always shows a skull; the values are scaled to player level. This plays havoc with runes like cure, cleansing waters, nature's veil, wiz invis feat, anything that compares to mob level. It would be nice for it to be true scaling (i.e. Mob level goes down, health numbers visible) and it would allow non-maxed players a greater range of strategies.

Well that explains why invisibility doesn't work. I never realized that. I wish it did though!

 

[Ildranach]

Well that explains why invisibility doesn't work. I never realized that. I wish it did though!

I agree. I also found it very frustrating. At level 91 with a crafted bow Veil will work if you have enough Nature mastery; never got that high on a wizard though.
This also applies for event zones, so for things like Vale, lower-level Cure and Cleansing Waters couldn't remove the DoT debuffs.

 

[V]

Please either reduce the group Raid damage scaling or put a 5 charge cap on the Bully Affix. The Bully Affix increases single target damage for each player in the Raid, and it was meant to scale boss damage so that tanks were required. However, both Bully and the 15 player Raid damage coupled together is simply too much to handle at once.

Below is the chart from a level 34 Woods Raid where Zitiki had a Bully stacked to 15 charges.

My tank has around 320,000 health when fully buffed but was being hit for 50,000 damage every 2 seconds. Then a massive shadow orb blast defeated me by chopping off half my health at once.

So please consider reducing group raid damage scaling or putting a cap on / removing the bully affix. Maybe both!

 

[Sinjin]

It would be nice to be able to cast a single cleansing waters to remove a negative effect from an individual instead of having to cast 3 times to remove it.

I consider aoe cure to be class-defining for a priest, so I’m not whinging for shaman to have one, but in a 15 player raid, it takes over a minute to cast cure on each player... and since the rune is level-sensitive and doesn’t scale at all, having to cast it multiple times on each player takes 5 minutes, while doing nothing else to cure a 15man raid. Pffft.